I was unhappy to see a difference of opinions turn into a (small) flame war on one of our topics. Brought to mind something that's been bothering me for a while.

There's a surprising number of people building locosts (or at least chatting about it) on this and TOL. Many have opinions or advice to share, and often they come across as if reading from the gospel (it's just the nature of the internet).

Some of the opinions or advice are plain dangerous, many aren't worth the paper they're written on (which is none of course), others are benign at best, and some are priceless nuggets from knowledgeable experts. But it's very hard to tell the difference. Usually all we can do is trust our judgement, or use previous posts or what we know about the contributor's background to guess whether they're helping or hurting.

What would be really good for us amateurs is for our experts to refrain from statements like "those are shite to use on a locost". It would be so much better to hear: "I've used those before in this manner under these conditions, and it had this particular problem or advantage". We could extrapolate to our own situation at our own risk (YMMV), and statements like those are very hard for anyone to take personally or dispute - fewer bad feelings all around.

I know I'm as guilty as anyone else of this, but I'm trying, and at least I can use the defense that no one listens to me anyway.

I belong to a few different newsgroups and forums (fora?), and if I've learnt anything, it's to take everything with a large pinch of salt!

No, I'll rephrase that...

If I ask a question and get a whole heap of answers, I always read them with interest. Then I weigh each one against my own experience and decide whether the proposal is worth considering.

Finally I choose my course of action and I take the entire responsibility for what I do.

In addition, I do tend to answer a lot of questions, mostly because I'm a long way through building my car and have experienced the same problems along the way. However, I do try to give an answer in the form of "I did it this way...", not "you must do it this way, there is no other..."

To reiterate*, look at the advice offered and use your own judgement.

regards,

David

* It's OK as long as you clean up afterwards

If a couple of people end up having a crappy flame war on this forum then at least you can choose to leave the topic unopened!

Unlike TOL...

cheers,

David

What's TOL?

Seen it mentioned before and didn't know then either.

Cheers

A lot of people have different opinions on how things should be done. There is no hard and fast way of doing things.
It all depends on how you look at things I guess!

A method that might be right for one will not be for another. Which is right is unimportant. What works for you is what matters.
Some people can take on others experiences and progress from there. Others need to learn things the hard way (I fall into that catagory) and experience things for themselves.

How many times have you seen/been told "don't touch that it's hot" yet still have to put your hand near to confirm it?

As David said take it all with a big pinch of salt and decide for yourself what you want to do!

When you come onto this forum you would think that it is just about Locost cars (ie those as promoted in Ron Champion's book). However the reality is there is a vast variety of designs and layouts. Whatever your goals, you read what you want, take in what you want and contribute what you want!

Personally I think some of the flames are entertaining. Maybe not for the recipient at the time, but afterwards most will look back with amusement!

These are all just my wierd opinions!

Terry

TOL = The Other List

Yonks ago it used the the main place for Locost builders to hang out and discuss car building. Unfortunately it went through a phase where sh*t-stirrers started stupid arguments, and some people wouldn't give up on a topic even though it had been done to death, plus one or two anally-retentive moderators and it all got too tedious.

Chris then announced that he'd set up this website (and indirectly started another set of flame wars!) and the 'good guys' slowly migrated over. All the US and Oz folk set up their own Yahoo groups as well.

Rather sad, because there were some really good contributors on there, and most of the moderators did a really good job by just nudging things here and there, when necessary.

Now it's calmed down a lot, but few knowledgeable people contribute stuff these days.

Oh - you'd probably like to see the URL as well

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/locost/

cheers,

David
(who is still an occasionally-active member of TOL)

I built my car before the internet was invented, at our house anyway, and was helped by the book, MK's, my mate Kev who was building as well and several magazines and kit car shows. Anyone can say how they have done something and offer advice on a subject, it's up to a reader whether they accept it as gospel or go their own route. I don't mind anyone taking the piss, it's not serious is it? I've spotted several things on both lists that I would probably have used if I had been doing a car now and I don't think I've seen anything that looks blatantly dangerous or insulting to the intelligence of any participants although a lot of the questions asked are repeated occasionally and could be researched from reading back posts or using Google or similar. I've used spherical joints on parts of my car, Triumph joints on front wishbones and Poly bushes on rear as well and they all work quite alright, I think this is the latest contender for a fallout but I will carry on reading and absorb what I want and pass over what I don't.
Keep 'em coming in, it makes the day go quicker.

yours, Pete.

As I see it, Ron and Jim's books should be seen as guidelines. The variety of options now available to builders allows each to persue his own particular purgatory. The books cannot cover all scenarioes and that is where this forum comes into it's own. I have asked questions in the past and recieved sound advice for which I am grateful. I appreciate the fact that all responses may not be helpful but it is up to you to decide what advice to take.

Quite liked the idea of the "Did you find this post of use" input.

Any plans to make this a feature??

Mick

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Originally posted by Mix
Quite liked the idea of the "Did you find this post of use" input.

Any plans to make this a feature??
Mick

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Boy, did my heart sink when I saw the title of this thread.

It's like deja vu

No locost is exactly like any other, what might work on yours, might not on mine.

most subjects on here throw up different ways of doing things, pick the one you like

All replies are valid as they add to the discussion, even if they're wrong, as this may bring out a more knowledgable answer, by way of correction. Very few incorrect things get through on here.

Don't make people afraid to post for fear of criticism, that's what killed TOL.

Cheers

Chris

Agreed Chris.

The way I tend to play it is...

ask question...
wait for response(s)... (hopefully )
ask more questions if required...
wait until thread has obviously come to a conclusion as after a few days if no-one has posted on it then all that's going to be said has been said...

then pick out the advice that you are happy with...

After posting and reading this forum for a while you soon get to know who the knowledgable people are and therefore trust what they say. I don't count myself in the trusted section but on some things I've found out an answer and if I can add something to the thread I will. If people choose to use what I post then great if not then no biggy. ATEOTD I will build my car how I want to build it and if I get stuck on something that common sense tells me may be life threatening later on then I'll strive to get the best answer possible. If there are conflicting opinions then I'll cross reference the opinions with other sources before making a decision. I know plenty of other people other than on this forum that can help me and if I didn't then I probably shouldn't be trying to build a car!

Sorry Chris, another fine example of how hard it is to get one's meaning properly across the wire. I didn't intend to criticise or discourage posts at all. I was trying to encourage a few more references to the real world in people's answers.

I'm not picking on this forum - the problem is everywhere and worse in most. In fact, this is the only forum I've joined where there's an appropriate place for me to whine about it .

I can think of a couple of classic examples. First is the Rorty/Syd discussion of telfon lined ball joints (that inspired my whine). Unsubstantiated arguements of "it works here, it doesn't work there" can only be refuted with "nope, you're wrong" and hurt feelings. But if say Rorty says: "I've used teflon ball joints on the suspension in my buggies, and they last for 3 races under hard use", who can argue with that? We can all learn from it and decide what to do.

The next - bump steer. Rorty's post was the best IMO (are you starting to get the feeling I'm a dedicated Rorty fan ?). He didn't give a pet theory, he said something like: "There was a buggy that would dart off in either direction after every bump - we looked and it was caused by bump steer" (sorry for butchering his real words).

Most everyone else were quoting things they've read in books or heard someone say. That's fine, but we should quote the source - it's quite possible the situations aren't the same. What I felt was sorely missed was someone who said "On my locost I've got 3/16" toe out on 2" of bump and it feels fine (or nasty or whatever). We could really use that kind of input.

Every once in a while I wade through the conflicting opinions and I lose faith that I could ever hope to finish this car - how can I ever sort between what's so religiously right AND wrong? Then I remind myself of the number guys I know who've finished their cars without being curse/blessed with this knowledge, and their cars go real nice. And I'm a long way along in my build - how does a newbie keep from getting discouraged? Esp if they cruise through the older discussions here?

Paraphrasing to make a point: "You can't have any lateral movement of the roll center, if you don't have a CAD don't even try to design your suspension". But so many have been built without a CAD or an analysis! And who's to say whether the moving roll center causes the car to gently transition into understeer or jump to snap oversteer? I've read Smith's book, and he's talking about driver's with honed skills on the edge of the traction circle. So who CAN say? Someone who's built a chassis with a geometry and a driving style just like yours, that's who. (Rorty often reminds us he builds buggies, not locosts - right on).

I meant this as an appeal to be sensitive to each other and to potential newbies, and to try to quote real examples rather than rules of thumb, so we can be sure we're drawing good conclusions and not end up bashing egos.

Do I really think to make a difference? Nah. But I had the thought, I found the right section for it here, and for that I thank you Chris. Besides, I needed to get my post count up .

What a fabulous (if a little deep for this time of night...) discussion.

I personally think that opinions whether right or wrong, are extremely important for the thread to grow. Yes, unfortunately it does sometimes collapse into flames, but then it adds entertainment for the rest of us! Most of the time though, flames from threads arise because whilst the internet is a wonderful tool for discussion, it cant add feeling to the discussion. You have to add that yourself. Just the way you 'read' the thread, can make a big difference to how it is interpreted.
When reading a discussion that is in full flow, I sometimes re-read the various replys in a different 'voice'.

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Sorry Chris, another fine example of how hard it is to get one's meaning properly across the wire. I didn't intend to criticise or discourage posts at all. I was trying to encourage a few more references to the real world in people's answers.

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I personally doubt ChrisG was running your idea down, just forwarding an arguement that could possibly detract on useful info and generally good natured atmosphere of this site.

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Just so long as everyone notes that you talk bollocks, eh Chris...

you post your query..........
you read the replys...........
you makes your mind up..........

simple.

there must be 100+ completed locosts owned/driven by users of this list with well over that figure in various states of construction, stand em all in a row, no 2 will look alike, don't you just love locosts.

IMO some replys get a bit deep, i just ignore em, easy as that, guess i post 5hite too from time to time in other peoples opinion, ignore em, simple as that.......live n let live n take out the snippets that help.

You can rely on the Hippy to sum it up in a nutshell!

Cheers

Chris

I'm going to pull your fingernails out one by one you hairy git.

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeP
Every once in a while I wade through the conflicting opinions and I lose faith that I could ever hope to finish this car - how can I ever sort between what's so religiously right AND wrong? Then I remind myself of the number guys I know who've finished their cars without being curse/blessed with this knowledge, and their cars go real nice. And I'm a long way along in my build - how does a newbie keep from getting discouraged? Esp if they cruise through the older discussions here?

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On thing's certain on this group - ask a question and you'll get 10 contradictory answers!

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quote:

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Originally posted by chrisg
Boy, did my heart sink when I saw the title of this thread.

It's like deja vu

No locost is exactly like any other, what might work on yours, might not on mine.

most subjects on here throw up different ways of doing things, pick the one you like

All replies are valid as they add to the discussion, even if they're wrong, as this may bring out a more knowledgable answer, by way of correction. Very few incorrect things get through on here.

Don't make people afraid to post for fear of criticism, that's what killed TOL.

Cheers

Chris

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quote:

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Originally posted by stephen_gusterson

BTW David - how many of those TOL categories did I fit.. all of em?

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I bit as fast as I could - I was on hols!

atb

steve