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New Capri
Noodle - 25/8/03 at 11:39 AM

In this weeks Autocar (UK) 19 Aug 2003, there's a lead story on a new Ford Capri.

It's engineered to give a "rear drive look". (Long bonnet, short overhangs) But it's front drive.

Have Ford not learned the lessons from the Cougar/Probe? Or even the X-Type? (Sales of which have been very poor according to my inside information)

Surely Ford would be better making a small-ish RWD platform and sharing it among some intersting cars rather than over-tinseling the bread and butter ones.

Feel free to ignore this, but I feel better for getting it off my chest. Ahhhhhhhh.


Neil.

chrisg - 25/8/03 at 05:46 PM

Spot on Neil,

At least it's not a caracature, like the new mini or beetle but it's not a Capri is it?

If people knew more about the cars they bought then everything wouldn't be FWD, This set up suits the car makers for packaging purposes but proper cars are front engined RWD!

(Appologies to AlanB and SteveG et al...!)

Cheers

Chris

Viper - 25/8/03 at 05:50 PM

I always thought the front wheel drive mentality was a safety issue, all understeer no oversteer.

ChrisW - 25/8/03 at 05:56 PM

Thats what I thought too...?

Chris

Noodle - 25/8/03 at 06:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Viper
I always thought the front wheel drive mentality was a safety issue, all understeer no oversteer.

I thought that too, however with minimal weight loading over the rear-wheels (poor weight distribution) when the back wheels do go, they can go in a pretty spectacular manner. These hot-hatches with 'reduced' understeer can suffer badly from this. Remember the Peugeot 205 GTi anyone? Loads ended up in hedges (or maybe the huge ICE systems were to correct the weight distribution). Hmmmm. Maybe not.

Neil.

Spyderman - 25/8/03 at 07:10 PM

I'm with you Noodle!

The Crapi's were always fun to drive if not necesarily quick.
I learnt a lot about driving in my old crapi!

Rear wheels are for driving, front are for steering. Engine can be anywhere, I don't care! Had enough Beetles anyway.

Terry


[Edited on 25/8/03 by Spyderman]

Alan B - 25/8/03 at 07:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Viper
I always thought the front wheel drive mentality was a safety issue, all understeer no oversteer.


Yeah, that's the official line...but really it's a cost saving/packaging issue....

chrisg - 25/8/03 at 09:22 PM

"The auto industry in europe will never be profitable until all cars have front wheel drive, the potential cost savings in having all the major driveline components installed in one operation are enormous"

Le Iacoca, Chairman of general motors Europe 1978

Quoted from GM europe meeting.

Cheers

Chris

stephen_gusterson - 25/8/03 at 10:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Noodle

Have Ford not learned the lessons from the Cougar/Probe? Or even the X-Type? (Sales of which have been very poor according to my inside information)

Neil.



But most of the Xtype models are 4 wheel drive - not fwd. Only the enty level ones are fwd.


I think Xtype sales have been bad, if thats the case, cos of company car tax.


I nearly got my co car changed, until the gits decided to renew the lease to be 4 years. I have to decide a new car in March next year.

When I thought I had to choose this year, although an X type would have been at the top of my list, there was no way id actually have one.

Company car tax is based on co2 emissions. My 318i is 18% tax, the entry level petrol x type is 27% tax! That means my 250 quid a month taken by mr brown for the car would turn into approx 380 quid a month. An x type isnt worht that much extra! A new 318i is 18% still.

HOWEVER the new diesel (yeah - a diesel 'jag' mondeo - very traditional) - is only 18% co2 emissions. I can now try out an x type and not pay thro the nose.

But it has to be a diesel.





I recon that the diesel will really open up the market for jag as it will take the cost penalty of a x type away.

A really really bad choice of company car is the Lexus IS200. Its co2 rating is balistically high!!!!!!!!!!


atb

steve

[Edited on 25/8/03 by stephen_gusterson]

stephen_gusterson - 25/8/03 at 10:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
packaging purposes but proper cars are front engined RWD!

(Appologies to AlanB and SteveG et al...!)

Cheers

Chris



My car IS front engined RWD.


Its a locost made to look like a (dont start me off!)........





or are you apologising for summat you havnt done yet



Re FWD safety - thats what I heard too, but I recon its also cost grounds. It could be a lot cheaper to produce a fwd engine and drive train than a fwd / prop / rear diff combo.




[Edited on 25/8/03 by stephen_gusterson]

Noodle - 26/8/03 at 06:04 AM

quote:
But most of the Xtype models are 4 wheel drive - not fwd. Only the enty level ones are fwd.
Agreed, but Jag's hand was forced by Ford into spicing up a Mundano. Plugging the virtues of 4wd's traction when still making 400hp RWD machines? It simply doesn't make any sense. I really think Ford should make a smaller RWD platform, then they'd have some interesting opportunities open to them in manufacturing, rather then spending their time wondering what body they can glue onto a Focus floor pan. Again. I believe this was one of the reasons Wolfgang Oojiflip left (the one who looked like Leslie Phillips) Ford's Premier Automotive Group. He was so upset he went into fork-lifts!

quote:
"The auto industry in europe will never be profitable until all cars have front wheel drive, the potential cost savings in having all the major driveline components installed in one operation are enormous"

Le Iacoca, Chairman of general motors Europe 1978
Well he's wrong. In current times, while most of the manufacturers have their accountants against the wall, it seems that BMW are the only ones who can make money. The very same company who won't 'tarnish' their name by making FWD cars. They even bought another manufacturer for that. Lexus are smart enough to see how to make money (by ripping BMW's magic formula) but the rest of the Euro crowd continue to upsize 406's. And they wonder why they don't make money! Duh!

Rumour has it, some "yes" man got shot at Alfa Romeo and they're developing the next generation 156/166's to be RWD so they can compete with you-know-who. I hope it's true.

Neil.

p.s. Isn't the Diesel X-Type FWD?

stephen_gusterson - 26/8/03 at 10:25 AM

I have a 318i and its an 'ok' car.

It has a few option on it but nowt flashy or out of the ordinary or expensive.

The engine is an 8 valve 118 hp unit.

The list price of the damned over priced thing was 23,200.

My wifes renault megane, with similar features and only 3 hp short was 11,200 quid.

Thats 12,100 different.

I wonder where BMW get the money to make their cars RWD. Toghie!


A basic 318i is still about 19 - 20k, and a basic mondeo is about 14 - 15k. The COST price of the extra 'quality' of a beemer isnt that much more, and there is cash in there to use a RWD setup from the extra 5k.

Just compare a beemer with an average family equivalent. In fact the beemer 318i could be considered a german ford focus equivalent, a massive price difference methinks.


Ford dont make cars larger than mondeo sized now - no granadas or the like.

They apparently decided that jag was to be their larger cars marque. You will continue to see the name 'bastardized' over the years.

Just look at what happened to rover.


atb

steve

MK Goldrush - 26/8/03 at 11:26 PM

According to sources within Ford... the Mondeo derived Jaguar has indeed the Ford diesel lump. However, this engine in it's raw form generated more than 250bhp, snapped driveshafts a plenty. So... the engine has had to be severly detuned for the Mondeo, and released a little for the Jaguar (remapping). Apparently, once you're inside the Jaguar it's deathly silent and the build quality is exceptional, as you ought to expect. Being as this Ford engine was designed with PSA (Citroen, Peugeot etc) it's sort of what you'de expect... almost same as the rest!
On a different note - there is an old'ish write up on the New Capri from the inhouse @Ford Magazine on my site.
www.southyorkshirecapriclub.co.uk head to "News" to view!
Stephen's absolutely right about the failure of Jaguar's being at the hands of Mr Brown... well said that man! Will it influnce your vote in the next election?

stephen_gusterson - 26/8/03 at 11:29 PM

Think its about 125 hp in the jag diesel - shame, cos the 2.0 petrol is 157 hp!



the tax rules are nuts.

everyone at my company is using filthy diesels cos they are cheap tax wise.

low co2 emission but massively high particle emissions.

what walleys.

atb

steve

[Edited on 26/8/03 by stephen_gusterson]

Alan B - 27/8/03 at 02:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
packaging purposes but proper cars are front engined RWD!

(Appologies to AlanB and SteveG et al...!)

Cheers

Chris



My car IS front engined RWD.



Erm...Steve, I don't think Chris meant you on this occasion...I suspect he meant Steve Graber who is building a middy like what I am..

stephen_gusterson - 27/8/03 at 09:49 AM

I was here first!

atb

steve

Simon - 27/8/03 at 02:05 PM

I reckon I hold the record for the longest/slowest (lack of) power slide in a Capri at about 3/4 mile (maybe more, maybe less - haven't measured it!!) up a hill in the snow.

Our car is rear engine, front wheel drive.

ATB

Simon

PS. It's not really

ned - 27/8/03 at 03:13 PM

Simon,

it is in reverse

Ned.

Simon - 27/8/03 at 04:14 PM

Oops

That'll explain the neckache.

And the rear wheel steering

Thanks for pointing it out Ned

ATB

Simon

[Edited on 27/8/03 by Simon]

chrisg - 27/8/03 at 07:11 PM

quote:

Erm...Steve, I don't think Chris meant you on this occasion...I suspect he meant Steve Graber who is building a middy like what I am..


Mr |Gusterson,

When am I ever talking to you?

Cheers

Chris

stephen_gusterson - 27/8/03 at 07:28 PM

Bitch

atb

steve