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Mosley ridicules 'halfwit' Stewart --- oh dear

britishtrident - 25/9/07 at 11:29 AM

As published on web Flagworld Auto123 website

http://flagworld.auto123.com/en/racing/news/index,view.spy?artid=89851

Quote Flagworld report
September 25, 2007
Mosley ridicules 'halfwit' Stewart

Max Mosley has lashed out at Sir Jackie Stewart following the famous Scot's strong criticism of how the FIA handled the espionage saga.

source: GMM

Triple world champion Stewart, who still attends every race as a sponsor representative, was a regular media commentator throughout the affair that he ultimately branded a "witch-hunt" that unfairly pursued McLaren and Ron Dennis.

Stewart, who is 68, also said the World Motor Sport Council's sanctions probably wouldn't have held up in a normal civil court.

"I thought that it was handled very poorly," Stewart said recently, "and I think (the fine) was (handed down) because it would get an immense amount of attention globally.

"It seems some of the most powerful people (in F1) are more aligned to Ferrari. There are more Ferrari representatives on the World Council than anybody else."

In a media lunch in London on Monday, FIA president Mosley hit back with rancour as he dismissed Stewart as a "certified halfwit" who dresses oddly.

He did not refer to the diminutive Scot by name, but was quoted by the Daily Mail as saying: "There's one particular ex-driver who because he never stops talking, never has the chance to listen -- so he doesn't know what's going on.

"It's annoying that some of the sponsors listen to him because he's won a few championships. But nobody else in formula one does -- not the teams, not the drivers. He's a figure of fun among drivers," Mosley added.

Mosley also apparently poked fun at Stewart's tartan trousers and caps, adding: "He goes round dressed up as a 1930s music hall man. He's a certified halfwit."

End Report Quote.
-------------------------------------------------------

If true I would have expected better of the highest ranking official in F1, Motorsport is about drivers. cars, engineers, technicians & marshalls, it is not run for the benefit of rich aristo lawyers with dodgey ultra right wing backgrounds who wear thousand euro blazers

In contrast JYS is won of the most respected characters in the sport, his unease with recent events is shared by many other greats of the sport, not all share exactly the same view as JYS but share a distaste for the politics that have bogged down the sport in what could have been its greatest year for decades.

If true this statment sounds like bringing the sport into disrepute to me.

[Edited on 25/9/07 by britishtrident]

[Edited on 25/9/07 by britishtrident]

mookaloid - 25/9/07 at 11:34 AM

How to win friends and influence people

caber - 25/9/07 at 11:40 AM

Jackie Stewart is not someone i would get on the wrong side of Max better watch his back at the next GP or he might be wearing an oddly coloured eye and a split lip

Caber

nick205 - 25/9/07 at 11:44 AM

It's akin to playground behaviour. Self important, jumped up people with little or no concept of the real world.

BenB - 25/9/07 at 11:45 AM

Get gun.
Shoot left foot.
Reload.
Repeat for right foot.

Way to go Max!!!!
Attacking one of the most popular figures in motor-racing in the UK....
What's he going to say next?
"And Stirling Moss drove that Mini like a girl"....

Trashing a UK F1 manafacturer, now attacking an ex UK F1 champion, seriously hampering the chances of a UK driver to win the F1 championship.....

You would have thought the certified son of a fascist would have more interest in UK interests!!!! Actually, I suppose it's not certified that he was Oswald's- Mrs Mosely might have been nobbing adolf explains a lot!!!

[Edited on 25/9/07 by BenB]

britishtrident - 25/9/07 at 11:49 AM

Think about this one
Max from super rich aristo family

JYS --- son of owner of a small garage
Ron -- came up by own boot straps from being an apprentice at Cooper cars.
Lewis --- not exactly from an advantaged background

Starting to see a common thread

A pity Fangio, Denny Hulme and Jack Brabham wern't still around.

[Edited on 25/9/07 by britishtrident]

[Edited on 25/9/07 by britishtrident]

TimC - 25/9/07 at 11:53 AM

I've had a tit-full of the sport and the processions that they refer to as racing.

I won't bother to watch it again - I usually fall asleep anyway.

AndyH - 25/9/07 at 11:57 AM

HOW DARE A NAZI FACIST CALL A KNIGHT OF THE REALM A "CERTIFIED HALFWIT"

How many championships has that bast@rd won.

He has no respect for the sport or the great men of it.

If non of the drivers have respect for Sir Jackie that'll be why he instructs and coaches so many of them.
They dont go to that nazi pr@ck to find out how to be a better racer.

BenB - 25/9/07 at 11:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by AndyH
HOW DARE A NAZI FACIST CALL A KNIGHT OF THE REALM A "CERTIFIED HALFWIT"

How many championships has that bast@rd won.

He has no respect for the sport or the great men of it.

If non of the drivers have respect for Sir Jackie that'll be why he instructs and coaches so many of them.
They dont go to that nazi pr@ck to find out how to be a better racer.

But they might go to him to win a championship.... particularly the constructor's....

[Edited on 25/9/07 by BenB]

RK - 25/9/07 at 12:18 PM

Who would you rather have a conversation with, Max M. or JS? Pretty much sums it up.

The guy has absolutely no sense of right and wrong. But it means he is feeling the heat, which is a good thing

BenB - 25/9/07 at 12:31 PM

Right now I'd rather have a conversation with Max. In a lift. With no security cameras. Right after I got back from baseball practice.

James - 25/9/07 at 12:58 PM

I was thinking that Ben.

But who needs a bat when you've got Savate kickboxing boots like me!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw4h_33AVDY

If you don't want to watch the whole thing, check out 03min 45secs

Cheers,
James

[Edited on 25/9/07 by James]

BenB - 25/9/07 at 01:13 PM

Accourding to Planet F1 he's also had a pop at an Indian billionaire buying Spyker.

Is there any evidence he's not just a rascist fascist nut-job?

Oh well, at this rate he'll be resigning in a few weeks....

iank - 25/9/07 at 01:26 PM

Has he always been like this, or are we only now hearing about how he normally does business?

He'll last less than a week if he has a pop at Bernie I suspect.

BenB - 25/9/07 at 01:50 PM

Unlikely to happen- they're closer than two puppies in a wonderbra

iank - 25/9/07 at 02:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Unlikely to happen- they're closer than two puppies in a wonderbra

I think Bernie likes his ego and his money more than Max. Anything that even potentially risks his position or his gravy train will get his full attention.

omega 24 v6 - 25/9/07 at 04:43 PM

The guy's an arsehole end of, and does anyone know where the thread went, re can Max keep his job. now that we all know he's a facist who campained to keep britain white and was arrested in the process. How can a Facist who seems to be anti black (at least in his past),anti Scottish, anti poor background, and pro Ferrari (read Italian conections eg Mussolini) be expected to be impartial in any decision making within the FIA especially as he's going to hand over to Jean Todt. Seems to me he's part of the "Old Money" set. ARGHHHHHHH RANT OVER.

jollygreengiant - 25/9/07 at 06:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
The guy's an arsehole end of, and does anyone know where the thread went, re can Max keep his job. now that we all know he's a facist who campained to keep britain white and was arrested in the process. How can a Facist who seems to be anti black (at least in his past),anti Scottish, anti poor background, and pro Ferrari (read Italian conections eg Mussolini) be expected to be impartial in any decision making within the FIA especially as he's going to hand over to Jean Todt. Seems to me he's part of the "Old Money" set. ARGHHHHHHH RANT OVER.

I'm sorry but I must complain about the use of the forth word in this post. Even Arseholes provide one good useful function in life.

omega 24 v6 - 25/9/07 at 06:49 PM

LOL but I'm not retracting it

novacaine - 25/9/07 at 07:22 PM

criticizing the FIA usually results in a driver loosing/being threatened with loosing their superlicence, senna for example.

as Mr Stewart no longer competes in F1 and has criticised the FIA he is branded a fool, FIA is a dictatorship, what kind of an organisation increases the penalty if the original is apealed against.

I hate the FIA,

got rid of Group B because it was better than F1,

Got rid of Group C because it was better than F1

Screwing F1 up, whats next? getting rid of the 750mc because its better than F1?

Russ-Turner - 25/9/07 at 09:28 PM

A lot of people seem to be jumping on a bandwagon here and confusing Max Mosely with his father. Without Bernie and Mosely F1 might have folded years ago. Some people need to look at the history of the sport a little closer before they open their mouths. Stewart is a bit of a clown, and after the mess he left Silverstone and the B.R.D.C. in nearly losing us the British G.P. if I was him I'd retire in peace and keep my opinions to myself as I personally have no interest whatsoever in whichever former champs the media keep digging up to ask for quotes.

The first thing to say is I am completely convinced McLaren made use of the data they had received. This data was not the Stepney 780 page dossier, but detailed sheets of Ferrari set up data and strategy information, sent to the team before the races. It was seen at the highest technical level within McLaren and by two drivers. Two of these three people (plus CoughlanStepney) were not at the WMSC meeting to explain their actions.
This is different to copying or closely observing other teams. Having the facts before the event is completely unsporting. This is not usual form of spying that happens after the fact, where teams monitor and photograph each other, that is part of the game, everyone does it. McLaren should have told Ferrari some one was plying them with information, not gone and stuck it through their computers to see where is got them and planned race strategies around it. Then claimed they never saw anything, it was all kept in Coughlans back room.

Read the following fact closely:
McLaren had Ferrari set up sheets and race strategy information before at least two of the opening races. Senior personnel within McLaren circulated this data and stated it was used in their simulations ahead of these races. Also within this communication the source of the data was confirmed as Coughlan and Stepney.

Clearly McLaren had Ferrari data and senior personnel have used it. This would have advantaged McLaren as they had not raced bridgestones tyres before and due to the tracks involved had not tested there either. This would have been critical information for the team to make use of at that stage of the season.
In My view the penalty is a farce, McLaren have lost their constructors point which is fair and big fine is good for TV, but the drivers were advantaged at these races and thus their points should have been stripped for at least those races. Additionally those involved in the sharing and subsequent dissemination of the data should be banned from FIA sanctioned sport.

I agree, this whole saga has been carried in the usual inept FIA way. This was not a court case, but a hearing of presentations made by the two parties to the governing body. Clearly we should have had the full legal hearing. The issues have not been helped by McLarens obstinate refusal to come clean (still to this day) and complicated by Ferrari and Italy�s pressing of the matter. This should all have been solved at the first hearing, but for whatever reason wasn�t done so. I still feel without the facts being made public, this saga will not go away and people will have a coloured view of what has actually happened in the hearing.

[Edited on 25/9/07 by Russ-Turner]

AndyH - 26/9/07 at 08:34 AM

Bravo, nice argument well put.

But if the FIA should hammer people for cheating, why are Ferrari still competing?
They have been cheating for years and getting away with it due to vested interests in the team.
It is a fact that all F1 teams cheat and bend the rules, the cars advance inspite of the rules not because of them.
What is annoying is the rules are there but it gets brushed under the carpet when Ferrari break them.
Bernie has commented that if it was a team at the back of the grid it would not be an issue, but when its Ferrari's bitter rival that about to win everything in sight.............
Sir Jackie messsd up due to incompetance, not out of self interest or any vendetta. We all make mistakes, but this is no mistake.

omega 24 v6 - 26/9/07 at 11:44 AM

I think you'll find that far from being incompetent Sir Jackie was one of the LEADING lights when it comes to todays cars being so safe. . Sure he dresses patriotically and yes he puts himself forward for the sponsors but he aint no halfwit. Also the fact that he is SIR Jackie should count for more respect than Muesli is giving him I mean when the Monarch of this country feels he has done enough ti knight him then who the f*ck cares what Max thinks about him. He's (max) an ar**hole that can RTF as far as I'm concerned.

Rob Palin - 26/9/07 at 12:04 PM

Is it worth noting that the FIA didn't feel the need to do anything to Toyota when 2 of its employees were convicted by a civil court of stealing CAD data on CD from Ferrari?

I want the FIA to punish cheating very harshly, but they should also do it consistently.

britishtrident - 26/9/07 at 12:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
A lot of people seem to be jumping on a bandwagon here and confusing Max Mosely with his father.

[Edited on 25/9/07 by Russ-Turner]

----------------------------------------------------------
Not the case I was willing to give Max the benefit of the doubt on the fascist aspect until I looked into it.
If the web sources (including the BBCi site) I have found are correct ? it would appear.

MAX Moseley was a fascist at least up to 1964 around the time he at the age of 24-25 became a fully qualified barrister.

He was a prospective candidate for Salford East constituency for his father party in the October 1964 election but pulled out at the last moment.

He was an election agent for his father's post-war party, the Union Movement. (1962 )

If his reported activities during the 1958 election campaign are true it sheds a very interesting light on hist attitude to Lewis Hamilton.

-----------------------------------------------------
Quote the Max Moseley Wikipedia, entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
"Mosley was an election agent for his father's post-war party, the Union Movement. He was for a time the party's prospective candidate for the Salford East constituency but withdrew shortly before the 1964 General Election. For a time Mosley was interested in becoming a Conservative MP but switched his allegiance to the Labour Party after meeting its then leader, John Smith, in 1994."
End quote
--------------------------------------

Max Moseley active for his fathers party in the 1958 and 1962 election I quote a BBC report on the 1962 election
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/31/newsid_2776000/2776295.stm
"Police were forced to close the meeting within three minutes and made 54 arrests - including Sir Oswald's son Max."
---------------------------------------------------------------

In the 1958 Election is activities were reportedly even more interesting ? -- seethe bottom of page 12 this site http://www.historytalk.org/Tom%20Vague%20Pop%20History/Chp%201.pdf

Max Moseley's Wikipedia biography entry is worth looking at it has a very long history of almost constantly being re-edited sometimes many times a day.

[Edited on 26/9/07 by britishtrident]

Paul TigerB6 - 26/9/07 at 12:29 PM

Seems to me that F1 has decended more and more into being all about money and politics rather than having anything to do with racing.
Who hosts Grand Prix these days depends on what brings in the most revenue - not which circuit will provide the best racing and have genuine overtaking potential.
Frankly - i'm sick of F1 and wouldnt really care if Bernie's F1 concern went bust. Pinacle of motor-racing??? Pinacle of 220mph advertising more like.

NS Dev - 26/9/07 at 12:32 PM

LOL Toyota have a history of that sort of dealing and yet they race on regardless.

The whole lot stinks, and I have absolutely no interest in it all whatsoever.

My solution is:

GET RALLYCROSS BACK ON MAINSTREAM TELLY!!!

I would bet my last pound it can pull in more audience than F1, and bring it back to the working class level that makes it all fun instead of a big business with no regard for the people that matter........the ones who compete, and the ones who pay to watch.

Lets not forget, nobody gives a damn who is in charge, it could be the chuckle brothers for all the drivers and spectators care, and its them that matter. The drivers cos they want to do it and the spectators cos ultimately they pay for it (via sponsors through media coverage obviously)

[Edited on 26/9/07 by NS Dev]

MikeRJ - 26/9/07 at 01:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
GET RALLYCROSS BACK ON MAINSTREAM TELLY!!!

Absolutely, far more exciting than a procession of F1 cars.

iank - 26/9/07 at 02:20 PM

Get autocross on the telly, and ice racing. Trouble is as soon as it gets popular the budgets soar and 'normal' people don't get to play any more. Then Sky will buy it and mean I won't be able to watch

I remember rallycross being on ITV (I think) when I was a kid - lots of years ago

[Edited on 26/9/07 by iank]

omega 24 v6 - 26/9/07 at 04:06 PM

GET RALLYCROSS BACK ON MAINSTREAM TELLY!!!

NOW YOUR TALKING.

Russ-Turner - 26/9/07 at 08:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Palin
Is it worth noting that the FIA didn't feel the need to do anything to Toyota when 2 of its employees were convicted by a civil court of stealing CAD data on CD from Ferrari?

I want the FIA to punish cheating very harshly, but they should also do it consistently.

As far as I see it, if you are monitoring a rival team either in real time or after the event, that is acceptable in as much that goes on all the time. Teams do not break into each others garages, they simply look at what goes on, All the teams do it and of course take sound recording from the trackside, pictures of each other cars and probably alot more too.
Radio broadasts are a similar thing, they are effectively open broadcasts on a public wave length. There are even websites that publish the frequencies and stuff for the teams radios.

Where McLaren differed in this case was that they actively sought private information and in some cases got it before the events.

As far as people taking data from one team to another, alas that also goes on, as long as the employee is not recruited specifically for that data. Otherwise people do take some info with them from job job, it happens in every industry. The ex-ferari Toyota staff took some code and aplications, this wasnt the full design detail sof the ferrari just a few tools to get there new jobs going, they could no doubt easily have recreated a similar application. Their actions were of course wrong, but not as serious as some suggest.

andyps - 26/9/07 at 10:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
A lot of people seem to be jumping on a bandwagon here and confusing Max Mosely with his father. Without Bernie and Mosely F1 might have folded years ago. Some people need to look at the history of the sport a little closer before they open their mouths. Stewart is a bit of a clown, and after the mess he left Silverstone and the B.R.D.C. in nearly losing us the British G.P. if I was him I'd retire in peace and keep my opinions to myself as I personally have no interest whatsoever in whichever former champs the media keep digging up to ask for quotes.

The first thing to say is I am completely convinced McLaren made use of the data they had received. This data was not the Stepney 780 page dossier, but detailed sheets of Ferrari set up data and strategy information, sent to the team before the races. It was seen at the highest technical level within McLaren and by two drivers. Two of these three people (plus CoughlanStepney) were not at the WMSC meeting to explain their actions.
This is different to copying or closely observing other teams. Having the facts before the event is completely unsporting. This is not usual form of spying that happens after the fact, where teams monitor and photograph each other, that is part of the game, everyone does it. McLaren should have told Ferrari some one was plying them with information, not gone and stuck it through their computers to see where is got them and planned race strategies around it. Then claimed they never saw anything, it was all kept in Coughlans back room.

Please would you point out where in the transcripts of the hearing it was pointed out that "This data was not the Stepney 780 page dossier, but detailed sheets of Ferrari set up data and strategy information, sent to the team before the races. It was seen at the highest technical level within McLaren and by two drivers." I have not seen this, and it has not been mentioned in the press reports or elsewhere. Maybe you have read a diiferent copy?

quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
Read the following fact closely:
McLaren had Ferrari set up sheets and race strategy information before at least two of the opening races. Senior personnel within McLaren circulated this data and stated it was used in their simulations ahead of these races. Also within this communication the source of the data was confirmed as Coughlan and Stepney.

Clearly McLaren had Ferrari data and senior personnel have used it. This would have advantaged McLaren as they had not raced bridgestones tyres before and due to the tracks involved had not tested there either. This would have been critical information for the team to make use of at that stage of the season.

Facts? They are about as factual as the pig which I just saw fly past my window. Please justify and prove.

quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
In My view the penalty is a farce, McLaren have lost their constructors point which is fair and big fine is good for TV, but the drivers were advantaged at these races and thus their points should have been stripped for at least those races. Additionally those involved in the sharing and subsequent dissemination of the data should be banned from FIA sanctioned sport.

I agree, this whole saga has been carried in the usual inept FIA way. This was not a court case, but a hearing of presentations made by the two parties to the governing body. Clearly we should have had the full legal hearing. The issues have not been helped by McLarens obstinate refusal to come clean (still to this day) and complicated by Ferrari and Italy�s pressing of the matter. This should all have been solved at the first hearing, but for whatever reason wasn�t done so. I still feel without the facts being made public, this saga will not go away and people will have a coloured view of what has actually happened in the hearing.

I think the fact that McLaren asked the FIA to visit its factory to inspect anything and everything, but the FIA didn't bother might indicate who was telling the truth and who wasn't in this.

quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rob Palin
Is it worth noting that the FIA didn't feel the need to do anything to Toyota when 2 of its employees were convicted by a civil court of stealing CAD data on CD from Ferrari?

I want the FIA to punish cheating very harshly, but they should also do it consistently.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as I see it, if you are monitoring a rival team either in real time or after the event, that is acceptable in as much that goes on all the time. Teams do not break into each others garages, they simply look at what goes on, All the teams do it and of course take sound recording from the trackside, pictures of each other cars and probably alot more too.
Radio broadasts are a similar thing, they are effectively open broadcasts on a public wave length. There are even websites that publish the frequencies and stuff for the teams radios.

Where McLaren differed in this case was that they actively sought private information and in some cases got it before the events.

As far as people taking data from one team to another, alas that also goes on, as long as the employee is not recruited specifically for that data. Otherwise people do take some info with them from job job, it happens in every industry. The ex-ferari Toyota staff took some code and aplications, this wasnt the full design detail sof the ferrari just a few tools to get there new jobs going, they could no doubt easily have recreated a similar application. Their actions were of course wrong, but not as serious as some suggest.

So if your employees set out to, and do, steal confidential information from a competitor which is then used to copy from that competitor that is OK, but if one of your employees is handed information from a competitor without request it is not acceptable? I am not sure what your personal ethics are, but I cannot see how you can possibly think this is correct.

The actual facts here are that 2 Toyota employees stole data about the Ferrari wind tunnel from Ferrari, data which was used to build the wind tunnel which Toyota have - this has been proven in a court of law, and the two people concerned are currently in prison. On the other side, one employee of McLaren was handed data by a disgruntled Ferrari employee, this data had very limited exposure within McLaren, and those in senior positions who heard about the existence of it told the person to get rid of it and did what they could to stop any electronic transmissions from the Ferrari source. Anything else was not proven, but McLaren had to prove they didn't do it, which they tried to do by inviting the FIA as mentioned above. In addition, they had a full forensic investigation of their computer system and all it turned up was that someone had viewed a CD rom via the system, but there is nothing (as far as i know) to say this was a CD Rom with Ferrari information - it might even have been a freebie from a newspaper. Add in the fact that there are definite concerns about the legality of how Ferrari obtained the data about phone calls and SMS messages between Coughlan and Stepney and in a proper court McLaren would probably be awarded costs and Ferrari punished.

andyps - 26/9/07 at 10:09 PM

And in terms of the original subject of the thread, I think JYS should sue Mosley for libel, and then add bringing the sport into disrepute. Trouble is, it is only the FIA who have that power, and despite the apparent madness of President Mosley I can't imagine him doing that to himself.

[Edited on 27/9/07 by andyps]

britishtrident - 27/9/07 at 07:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
[. Teams do not break into each others garages, they simply look at what goes on,

They do ISTR one team sent somebody into break into the Williams garage.

Which team was it ? -- no NOT Mclaren or any of the so called "english" teams.

britishtrident - 27/9/07 at 07:33 AM

Quote from www.timesonline.co.uk

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2042025.ece

"Williams was a popular target in those days. Before his death in 1999, Dr Harvey Postlethwaite, Ferrari�s technical director, confessed to friends that he had led a break-in at the Williams team garage at Hockenheim in the summer of 1980. At the time, Ferrari were running the uncompetitive 312-T5 and Postlethwaite wanted to know more about the hugely successful FW07, so his engineers spent the whole night in the Williams garage." end quote

-------------------------------------

It is worth noting that Postlethwaite moved in similar social orbits to Moseley

[Edited on 27/9/07 by britishtrident]