There is an orchestrated force out there brainwashing the public to tow the line and I find this quite worrying and totally appalling. For example,some years ago, I cannot remember when exactly, I heard or read that we as a motoring public would be weaned off sportscars and encouraged to buy 4wd vehicles. What rubbish, I thought at the time, who in their right mind would trade their Aston for a Jeep but it really has happened. Speed has become anti social and the perpetrators of it are regarded on the same level as petty criminals by the general public. Overtaking is a lost art and everybody is now prepared to be part of a snake winding its way through Southeast England causing frustration and annoyance to all. No money has been allocated to driver training and everybody for the sake of road safety is reduced to the lowest common denominator. Every other vehicle you see on the road is a Chelsea Tractor and most, I would venture to say never go near off road. I was interested to read the thread started by David Jenkins where somebody mentions lowered Range Rovers running on low profile tyres. These people who drive them must have a real personality crisis. What they really want is a 911 but cannot get the family in. Well the've(whoever they are),have shot themselves in the foot alright now that fuel efficiency is the buzzword and everyone is talking green and NCAP 5 Stars. Where does that put the average 4x4. And what are Porsche thinking about with the Cayenne. What on earth is that all about?

What a breath of fresh air is Top Gear. Those lads are examples to us all. They really enjoy themselves in proper sports cars without pretence at political correctness. Life is very short and I believe we should be out there enjoying it. We only get one shot at it so let's make every minute count.

I fully expect to be flamed for this but that is what I really think. I'm now bracing myself for the flak!!!

John

John Bonnett for Prime Minister

[Edited on 8/10/2007 by NeilP]

I thank you

John Bonnett for Prime Minister



seconded

In full agreement, its one of those things that we can all see, but no one does anything about

HEAR HEAR.

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Bonnett
Speed has become anti social and the perpetrators of it are regarded on the same level as petty criminals by the general public.

John

---

Concur (mostly)

Those "lads" on top gear have it easy though. They don't have to fork out a stack of cash to a) buy, b) insure, c) tax, d) service and e) biggest of all, suffer depreciation. And of course, they get paid a wad of my cash for doing it. Would I like to do it. No, can't stand the thought of public speaking.

Oh and I'm not selling my 4.6l V8 MG ZT because I agree with the green thing (that's just a con!!). I'm selling as I'm pissed off with subsidising Gordon Brown and his squandering.

I am looking to buy an 5* ncap car though

ATB

Simon

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Bonnett
There is an orchestrated force out there brainwashing the public to tow the line and I find this quite worrying and totally appalling. For example,some years ago, I cannot remember when exactly, I heard or read that we as a motoring public would be weaned off sportscars and encouraged to buy 4wd vehicles. What rubbish, I thought at the time, who in their right mind would trade their Aston for a Jeep but it really has happened. Speed has become anti social and the perpetrators of it are regarded on the same level as petty criminals by the general public. Overtaking is a lost art and everybody is now prepared to be part of a snake winding its way through Southeast England causing frustration and annoyance to all. No money has been allocated to driver training and everybody for the sake of road safety is reduced to the lowest common denominator. Every other vehicle you see on the road is a Chelsea Tractor and most, I would venture to say never go near off road. I was interested to read the thread started by David Jenkins where somebody mentions lowered Range Rovers running on low profile tyres. These people who drive them must have a real personality crisis. What they really want is a 911 but cannot get the family in. Well the've(whoever they are),have shot themselves in the foot alright now that fuel efficiency is the buzzword and everyone is talking green and NCAP 5 Stars. Where does that put the average 4x4. And what are Porsche thinking about with the Cayenne. What on earth is that all about?

What a breath of fresh air is Top Gear. Those lads are examples to us all. They really enjoy themselves in proper sports cars without pretence at political correctness. Life is very short and I believe we should be out there enjoying it. We only get one shot at it so let's make every minute count.

I fully expect to be flamed for this but that is what I really think. I'm now bracing myself for the flak!!!

John

---

I have a chelsea tractor as a company car for one reason - have you ever tried to find enthusiasm to choose a car that has to do more than 30mpg (thus preferably diesel) and within a budget? The only rear wheel drive car that fell into the budget was a BMW 118... (yawn)

But, it does get "used" (i.e. spends as much time on B-roads as possible), rarely joins the snakes of traffic that do unfortunately escape from the south east (I lose count each day at the amount of people who seem to test that their main beam works as I overtake them! ), though it does rarely go off road....

But, in the garage is the Striker, a '66 Mini, four motorbikes (including two GP two-strokes - one runs on AVGAS!) and a Mazda Bongo camper! Stuff the greens and the conformists!

[Edited on 8/10/07 by Coose]

Pandemic flu isn't the government!! It's the bloody daily mail, express etc and other BS merchants who know panic sells papers... Same as Bird Flu, same as SARS...

The only shame is the government doesn't have the cahunas to say "stop being stupid". Instead they give in to the bored middle class wibbling and produce (at great costs) glossy pamphlets about what to do in the case of an outbreak of SARS whilst giving in to even more public wibbling pressure and stock-piling drugs that don't work for something that's never going to happen...

Meanwhile, people can't get access to drugs that are proven to work and where people certainly are going to die sooner if they don't get them.... Oh well.... As long as it keeps them in power

you'll have my vote too.

It is all about money!

So you can affort a bigger car, so you can pay more. etc etc

I do agree wit you John, but I dont think it's a brain-washing exercise. G.B. and his cronies are merely re-establishing and reinforcing the social economic groups. Those with the big lowered 4x4's with blackout windows etc (lets call them dealers) with plenty of money and little regard for the environment; will love it... kind of like rubbing our collective faces in the dirt with the back of their expensive well heeled leathers.

Lets face it the worst offenders are our beloved (not by me) Premiership footballers, but then brain-washing is maybe not the phrase, more of brain-airing! Brains are never a footballers strongest assets...

As you said - Roll on T.G. - we can all dream!

Steve

The main problem as I see it, is this: There's 3/5 of naff all that we can actually do about it. There isn't an opposition party any more, just slight variations on how you want to be taxed! We need a realistic 3rd party to vote for, and I wouldn't really care what they said either! As long as it makes someone, somewhere sit up and look about to see the general public are getting truly hacked off.

I had a tremendous 'discussion' with a lady at work who is uber-green. She was appalled to find that I had built a sports car and even more so when she found out it was a big and old engine, "...what do you mean it doesn't have a cat?!?..."

What really narked her was my argument that it was actually a model exercise of recycling. All the old fluids from the car were recycled appropriately, the parts from the donor went on Ebay to ensure that other cars were kept on the road (seeing as it is far better to reuse than recycle - i.e prevent another new car being built wasting vast quantities of energy in the process) and the shell went for recycling as well.

She hasn't spoken to me since so a result all round

the best one ive heard was an interview at an airport on the news with a bloke who said
"i dont mind paying the extra tax on my flight because its helping the environment"

hahaha

i dislike the whole idea of global warming as the only proposals that the good ol Gov. have put forward boil down to more tax.

now fags have fallen out of favour the government needs a new cash cow.

when the government replaces all the fosil fuel burning power plant with nuclear plants i will start going green.

ok i make biodiesel for the cars but the only reason is that it is cheap (well not as cheap as it should be with 30p Tax on it)


grrr

ok ive gone off on another incoherent rant, i really should stop doing this...

The way I see it is we can never be green because there are simply too many people on the planet.
The worlds population has quadrupled in 100 years. Whats the point in a little less emissions if the population rises and takes away all the gains you have made.

The public are being brainwashed and manipulated. This is all about social control where you have no option but to conform. The goverment is in a bind, they have squandered north sea oil and now we have to import oil from countries that are not stable, like Russia, Nigeria and the middle east. We cannot rely on Europe for energy so they need to reduce our usage. So make the car evil, reduce ownership to something just above a crime and enjoying one even worse.
The genral public belive global warming, speed kills, because they are told it enough by "experts". A bit like the kings new clothes no one wants to say it's wrong as the consequences of dissent can stop academic careers in their tracks.
I for one will not stop driving for work and for pleasure, I will enjoy the act of overtaking and put up with the ill informed nutsack the greens spout. Iteresting that a certain Hybrid car manufacturer has been found guilty of advertising using untruths, these cars are now used by our goverment and yet normal cars have as good a carbon foot print if not better.
Unless you want to have no chance of driving for pleasure I suggest you all discuss what the car gives the country, jobs wealth and yes enjoyment otherwise the inteligentia who think they know best will slowly take that away from you all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DIY Si
The main problem as I see it, is this: There's 3/5 of naff all that we can actually do about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Bonnett
Overtaking is a lost art and everybody is now prepared to be part of a snake winding its way through Southeast England causing frustration and annoyance to all.
John

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by novacaine
ok i make biodiesel for the cars but the only reason is that it is cheap (well not as cheap as it should be with 30p Tax on it)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Bonnett
There is an orchestrated force out there brainwashing the public to tow the line and I find this quite worrying and totally appalling.

For example,some years ago, I cannot remember when exactly, I heard or read that we as a motoring public would be weaned off sportscars
and encouraged to buy 4wd vehicles. What rubbish, I thought at the time, who in their right mind would
trade their Aston for a Jeep but it really has happened.
Well, that is the first I have heard of it. The first luxury 4x4 was the Range Rover that came on the market in 1970, prior to that the vehciles for going off road were utlitiatrian such as the Jeep and Series Land Rovers. The Japanese
copied with the toyota. I am sure there were others but nothing like the Range Rover. Over time, other manufacturers
saw the niche and developed products to compete hence we have Lexuses, Cayennes, BMW X5, X-trail, Land Cruiser, Tourag etc.

Simple rules of physics are that matter requires energy to deform. Translated into car terms, a bigger and heavier
vehicle will provide better protection. You cannot argue with that (actaully you can, example being series land rover on a very rigid chassis but modern vechicles are desing wiuth crumple zones, 4x4 have bigger ones). If drivers want to buy a vehicle whcih offers better protection to them and their family, then what is wrong with that? It is their choice.
The 4x4/offroaders/Chelsea tractors or whatever you want to call them do just that; I am sure you could find exception to the rules but I would rather be in a Cayeenne that in a cinqiciento punto should I ever be involved in a collision. It is for these reasons that cars have become larger and heavier;
people now are bigger, both in height and in girth, than they were 20 years ago, cars have more saftey features etc.

Speed has become anti social and the perpetrators of it are regarded on the same level as petty criminals by the general public.
Overtaking is a lost art and everybody is now prepared to be part of a snake winding its way through Southeast
England causing frustration and annoyance to all.

[color=Blue]So in the olden days, there were road signs encouraging you to drive faster and police would offer prizes for drivers who exceed the speed limit? Well I must be going senile as I don't recall anything like that. There were fewer cars on the roads whcih meant that driving
standards didn't need to be so strict as you are less likely to have a collision and cars were slower too. People were poorer
so da yuf/chavs could not afford to drive souped up novas, another contributor to accidents. It is well known that the majority of road accidents can be attributed to excessive speed.

As for overtaking, have been to the South East? It is one huge car park. How can you overtake when there is no room or it is not safe? Too many cars on the roads. Due to added safety feature, seat belts, ABS, airbags etc., people drive bumper to bumper so you need to be extra careful when overtaking.

No money has been allocated to driver training and everybody for the sake of road safety is reduced
to the lowest common denominator. Every other vehicle you see on the road is a Chelsea Tractor and most,
I would venture to say never go near off road.

I didn't realise it was compulsory to drive off road. So if you drive a sports car, you have to go
to a racing track? I would venture to say the majority never get near a racing track.

I was interested to read the thread started by David Jenkins where somebody mentions lowered Range Rovers
running on low profile tyres. These people who drive them must have a real personality crisis.
What they really want is a 911 but cannot get the family in. Well the've(whoever they are),
have shot themselves in the foot alright now that fuel efficiency is the buzzword and everyone is talking green and NCAP 5 Stars.
Where does that put the average 4x4. And what are Porsche thinking about with the Cayenne.
What on earth is that all about?

Again it is freedom of choice. So you think the government should ban the sales of 4x4? The CO2 emissions for offroadders is less for some sports cars and luxury saloons, likewise the amount of road they take up is smaller than quite a few family saloons or people carriers. The drivers already pay extra road tax and petrol tax for the privilige of driving those cars. Who are you to deny them the freedom to spend their money as they want?



John

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 02GF74
I am sure you could find exception to the rules but I would rather be in a Cayeenne that in a cinqiciento punto should I ever be involved in a collision. It is for these reasons that cars have become larger and heavier;

---

The whole point re Cayennes etc is that its people putting their safety above other people. If a Porsche Cayenne (or other 4*4) crashes into you, you're much more likely to end up with significant injuries.

The Sherman tank analogy is a good one. Yes, the people inside the tank are okay but it's a bit antisocial for everyone else. Unless they also start driving Sherman tanks, in which case the advantage is lost....

Clearly a Sherman crashing into a metro is no contest. But would a Sherman-Sherman crash be better, the same, or worse as a metro-metro crash???

Personally, I think they're big, fat and uneccesary and should be banned.... unless they're actually used off-road!!!

The problem is, some people need an off road vehicle for example towing trailers and going off road so how do you differentiate between people who need them and people who don't? How would you ban them? Already I can't drive anything bigger than 3,500 kgs and I can't tow my trailer without taking multiple tests. So what are you going to do? Ban all cars with 4 wheel drive? Which means bye bye to some sports cars? Ban cars over a curtain size? So does that mean a Land Rover 90 is ok but a 110 isn't? Or just ban off road cars out of cities? But then we can only afford one car, which has to be an off roader so does that mean we are banned from city centres? Or would you ban them on the weight? So a 2,000 kgs off roader is bad but a 2,000 kgs MPV is ok?

Phil M

EDIT : Would you ban on MPG? Say anything less than 30 mpg should be banned? We get about 40 in our off roader, how many do you get in your 7?

[Edited on 9/10/2007 by I love speed :-P]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BenB
The whole point re Cayennes etc is that its people putting their safety above other people.

---

shouldnt need to be any bans - this country has far too many unnecessary bans, rules and regulations already to make up for the fact that too many people dont have any common sense.

What i object to is these people that have large 4x4's just so they can bully their way around town on the school / shopping run with no consideration for others. Seems to be the way this country is going - with the "i'm alright" attitude, especially when it comes to the supposed "safety" of these cars.

Friend of mine owns a farm / riding school and has several 4x4's in his family. They are a necessity not a luxury so i'm sure everyone here is smart enough to agree they are needed by certain people

quote:

---

Originally posted by BenB
The whole point re Cayennes etc is that its people putting their safety above other people. If a Porsche Cayenne (or other 4*4) crashes into you, you're much more likely to end up with significant injuries.

Exactly. Should I ever have a crash, I would much prefer the other occupants to die or be seriously injured rather than me or my family. Sorry if that offends or is selfish but that is the way I am and I don't think that is an unreasonable attitude. Otherwise I'd drive a car made from papier mache with a surgeon in the passenger seat ready to remove my organs.

Personally, I think they're big, fat and uneccesary and should be banned.... unless they're actually used off-road!!!

You are entitled to your opinion, wrong as it is, some of them are quite nice, but that is no basis for banning them. I could say the same about sevens: they are small, ugly, impractical, noisy and unneceassry. but unlike you, I would not ban them. I believe people should be allowed to buy what they want.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
What i object to is these people that have large 4x4's just so they can bully their way around town on the school / shopping run with no consideration for others. Seems to be the way this country is going - with the "i'm alright" attitude, especially when it comes to the supposed "safety" of these cars.

Friend of mine owns a farm / riding school and has several 4x4's in his family. They are a necessity not a luxury so i'm sure everyone here is smart enough to agree they are needed by certain people

---

02GF74 - whilst you profuse about size/weight etc etc being an advantage... this summounts to ignorance. You obviously didn't watch a certain program within the last few weeks whereby they ran; in real world conditions, a 1990 740 Estate Volvo (Big and heavy) into a 2006 Renault Megane (proportionally smaller and lighter)... head on at 40mph, the Megane had NO (read that again NO) passenger or driver intrusion from impact damage. The driver of the Volvo would have been sliced in half by the dashboard and protruding iron work which kind of negates your who argument.

Regarding your analogy with the Fiat and the Cayenne... I was in a simlar accident a few years ago - my Skoda was crossing a crossroads when a guy in a Amazon went through on Red. I caught him between his front and rear wheels (side impact) he left the ground, travelled 29 feet in mid-air, chopped off a Traffic Light with his roof (he was upside down) then came to an eventual rest still upside down on a railing. Fortunately he was ok - BUT if he had have been in a car of equivalent HEIGHT this would simply have been a straight forward collision.

There was a survey recently however that pointed to the JEEP as being the most Green Vehicle on the planet - WHY? because the emissions they put out (over it's lifetime) do not add up to the emissions created constantly designing new and updated models and putting them into production. I think this is a US Army thing though...

Regarding emissions, the Chelsea Tractors are spewing out lots of emissions (yes same as top end sports cars) but because they are physically larger they require more materials and consequently use more fluids and tyres and exhausts and and and... this is where my personal gripe about 4x4's originates...

Steve

[Edited on 9-10-07 by Hellfire]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellfire
Regarding emissions, the Chelsea Tractors are spewing out lots of emissions (yes same as top end sports cars) but because they are physically larger they require more materials and consequently use more fluids and tyres and exhausts and and and... this is where my personal gripe about 4x4's originates...

Steve

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by davie h

i put my families safety and most of all my pregnant wife and son first before anyone else(maybe selfish but i love them more than words can desribe and i dont know what i would do if anything happend to them) if i could afford a big 4X4 i would put them in it and pray for their safety because there are 44ton trucks on the road and one of them could easily flatten any 4X4 so are the drivers of these putting their safety above that of others or should these be banned aswell for theis size

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by I love speed :-P

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellfire
Regarding emissions, the Chelsea Tractors are spewing out lots of emissions (yes same as top end sports cars) but because they are physically larger they require more materials and consequently use more fluids and tyres and exhausts and and and... this is where my personal gripe about 4x4's originates...

Steve

---

How many MPG's do you get with your 7? How many miles do your tyres last in your 7? Ok I admit the engine take 2 gallons of oil which will be more than a 7, but how many miles do you change the oil in your 7? And how does an off roader uses more exhausts?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellfire

So based on your declaration - you would not be driving a 4x4 - unstable (compared to a real car), less feedback from steering (large sectional tyres) MUCH slower to bring to a standstill (momentum) than an equivalent car, and when your children are playing around a 4x4 you cant see them in the rear view mirror etc you would squash them... sounds very safe to me.

Regarding the instability and braking issues compared to being safer in a crash - you brake and out manouver much more (I would hope anyway) than you crash. But all three combined makes non-sense.

Steve

---

i dont drive a 4X4 i have a 04 plate Megane and the reason i bought it was because of its safety rating

i was trying to make the point that my family are the most important peope to me and even if a 4X4 was the safest car i couldnt afford it the same as i couldnt afford a 57 plate megane and i still pray for their safety when they are out and about in the megane andd no i wouldnt buy one even if i could for the driveabillity reasons that you state

[Edited on 9/10/07 by davie h]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellfire
Weekend car - irrelevant, but 25 mpg and lower CO2 emissions (bike engine)
Trackday and infrequent driving - rears 5000 miles last count - 2 years use.
Offroader exhausts - uses more materials. Sevens are generally stainless are they not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by I love speed :-P

The problem with all this is that it can go on for ever. But you cant knock off roaders with out knocking 7's. and knock every car that isnt electric

---

Ok - but in reference to your ID - I Love Speed - do you really like speed in a 4x4? Do you love corners at speed too?

The rubber used to make your tyres would most likely make 2,3 or four of ours...

Se7ens are recycled generically - I rest my case.

Lets pay our RFL and see who the Government favours...

And I wish to protect my family too - seeing
accidents instigated by 4x4's and seeing the results of them on thier sides and rooves... this is the very reason I wouldn't HAVE one.

Steve

[Edited on 9-10-07 by Hellfire]

I do love speed as most people on here do, but on the roads in any car I feel its is silly with the amount of traffic and idiots on the roads around here so no matter what car i'm in the speed doesn't really change lets say 1 off road tyre makes 3 7 tyres 5000 x 3 = 15000 And I need an off roader so there isnt much I can do about it, but I don't like to be called a bully and worse things because of the type of car I need.

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Bonnett
There is an orchestrated force out there brainwashing the public to tow the line and I find this quite worrying and totally appalling. For example,some years ago, I cannot remember when exactly, I heard or read that we as a motoring public would be weaned off sportscars and encouraged to buy 4wd vehicles. What rubbish, I thought at the time, who in their right mind would trade their Aston for a Jeep but it really has happened. Speed has become anti social and the perpetrators of it are regarded on the same level as petty criminals by the general public. Overtaking is a lost art and everybody is now prepared to be part of a snake winding its way through Southeast England causing frustration and annoyance to all. No money has been allocated to driver training and everybody for the sake of road safety is reduced to the lowest common denominator. Every other vehicle you see on the road is a Chelsea Tractor and most, I would venture to say never go near off road. I was interested to read the thread started by David Jenkins where somebody mentions lowered Range Rovers running on low profile tyres. These people who drive them must have a real personality crisis. What they really want is a 911 but cannot get the family in. Well the've(whoever they are),have shot themselves in the foot alright now that fuel efficiency is the buzzword and everyone is talking green and NCAP 5 Stars. Where does that put the average 4x4. And what are Porsche thinking about with the Cayenne. What on earth is that all about?

What a breath of fresh air is Top Gear. Those lads are examples to us all. They really enjoy themselves in proper sports cars without pretence at political correctness. Life is very short and I believe we should be out there enjoying it. We only get one shot at it so let's make every minute count.

I fully expect to be flamed for this but that is what I really think. I'm now bracing myself for the flak!!!

John

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellfire
02GF74 - whilst you profuse about size/weight etc etc being an advantage... this summounts to ignorance. You obviously didn't watch a certain program within the last few weeks whereby they ran; in real world conditions, a 1990 740 Estate Volvo (Big and heavy)into a 2006 Renault Megane (proportionally smaller and lighter)... ... work which kind of negates your who argument.

Regarding your analogy with the Fiat and the Cayenne... I was in a simlar accident a few years ago - my Skoda was crossing a crossroads when a guy in a Amazon went through on Red. I caught him between his front and rear wheels (side impact) he left the ground, travelled 29 feet in mid-air, chopped off a Traffic Light with his roof (he was upside down) then came to an eventual rest still upside down on a railing. Fortunately he was ok - BUT if he had have been in a car of equivalent HEIGHT this would simply have been a straight forward collision.

---

The front tyres on my Datsun N-Trail lasted 31000 miles of company car abuse. It's still on the original rears after 37000! I have never been overtalen by anything with more than 2 wheels down our local B-roads, so who says that they don't handle?

Anyway, how's about a ban on bans?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coose

Anyway, how's about a ban on bans?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul TigerB6

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coose

Anyway, how's about a ban on bans?

---

Can we have one on politicians too???

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by I love speed :-P
And I need an off roader so there isnt much I can do about it, but I don't like to be called a bully and worse things because of the type of car I need.

---

Top and bottom of it everybody will drive what they want, but thinking your safer in a chelsea tractor is rubbish. If you car has a NCAP rating of 5 as does the later Meganes your as safe as your going to be in any car.
Just for interest the little Clio carries a 5 star rating
the big 4 x 4's don't carry that rating

O2 - correct - it wasn't a like for like basis... but for the record, even the experts that set-up the crash indicated that the Volvo would most likely sustain less damage.

Regarding your theoretical tussling re: your original L.R. and our Se7en. How about a game of Cat and Mouse as on TV....
1. You have to catch us - yes that includes speed...
2. You have to catch us - yes that includes corners...
3. If your's survives those two major obstacles and still moves, we could then put the front of our car between your fr and rr wheels and basically tip you out of the ring.
4. If your's is a Diesel, you would have an unfair advantage as that Perkins engine will kick out so much soot and particulates we wouldn't be able to find you...

Steve

no probs; tell me where you are going and I'll catch you. I have twin 10 gallon fuel tanks as well as 2 5 gallon jerry cans in the back plus can take a short cuts cross country.

Well, I can solve the problem. Some people don't like 4x4 because some arrogant twat has upset them. Most old grannies don't like bikes, as they too noisy. I don't like buses, taxis, lorries etc as they clog up the roads. Some think drivers of Porsches. Ferrarris and Lambo have something to prove (I probably agree). Basically everyone has something to whine about. Blimey, there's pobably someone out there who thinks no-one should be allowed to build their car from a set of plans!

Back to the horse and cart then.

Unless the poo upsets you!

Simon