Lets say a friend of mine wanted to re-wire the control system for his central heating system..
Replace the time clocks, temp stats, valves etc
Because its such an "unusual" heating system my friend wants to connect them up in a slightly different way to the norm in order to actualy
have a working heating system (The installers didnt understand the simple concepts)...
Would this be legal for him to carry out this work? (What with that part P IPP garbage)
He is confident at working with mains and understands the risks....
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
If you are found out or have an accident, then £5000 fine.
Those are the risks, it's up to him if he wants to accept them.
How would you be found out??
Thats the question that I keep wondering. Why do B&Q have all the equipment you need to wire a whole house. I know tradesmen don't shop at
those crazy prices!
I guess if you kill someone or set the house on fire they might notice....
The system is already inplace so in effect all he is doing is replacing like for like, which I thought was legal?
I'm a Service and Maintanance Engineer and work on these sytems all day.. with 0-Electrical qualifications as with most in the industry!.
On the whole electricians have no idea how to wire them up properly.
If its all Isolated properly and tested that it is then work away!
You can wire things yourself, but you can't switch it on.
You will either have to get a Part P electrician or your local council to test it.
As I said the choice is his.
I'm a spark so I don't have these hassles!
Oh, I can wire anything, central heating, BMS, CCTV, Alarms and even cars!
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
I know this is a whole other can of worms, but how hard is it to get the part-P piece of paper that makes things legal?
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
I know this is a whole other can of worms, but how hard is it to get the part-P piece of paper that makes things legal?
How far does part P go? Can you e.g. add a spur socket on a ring circuit or doesn't the government trust anyone to do anything anymore?
When the day comes when you have to get a government official to come round and change your lightbulbs I'm leaving the country 
ps
Q. How many social workers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. 10. 0 to actually change the bulb but 10 to write "how to deal with darkness". 
An apprentice trained electrician wins hands down, but IMHO, why pay someone else to do it when you can do it yourself to the same or better
standard....
Where can you do the part P qualification? It would be such a handy bit of paper to have for self certification of home work...
This "friend" of mine rewired a flat about 15 years ago, but now technically cant because of the lack of paper...sillyness at its best
to an existing ring - yes you can.
Check diynot.com or similar (google it) some very knowledgeable blokes there.
To get an item certified as safe the local building control have to come out. They charge £100 ish for small jobs and £300 ish for a full rewire I
believe.
I know cos when I come to sell my house I am going to have pay to gett he new consumer unit checked by them. The ass that installed it said he was
part p qualified, sent round an idiot to do the install and then refused to register it. He said if i told building control I'd get into trouble.
need to call him actually. thanks for the reminder!
quote:
Originally posted by BenB
How far does part P go? Can you e.g. add a spur socket on a ring circuit or doesn't the government trust anyone to do anything anymore?
When the day comes when you have to get a government official to come round and change your lightbulbs I'm leaving the country
ps
Q. How many social workers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. 10. 0 to actually change the bulb but 10 to write "how to deal with darkness".
Think i'd be from the school of "it was always there" "must have been fitted before I moved in" etc.
Its my bloody house and i'll do as I like! I've paid enough for it... provided you happy enough yourself that it safe worry about the rest
later!.
If in years to come and it has to be checked over should you come to sell the house.. if you've done it properly in the first place then
it'll pass ok
The point is that people do wire up their own homes and some of them manage to kill themselves or someone else.
Part P was designed to keep the stupid from touching their wiring.
No Electrician is going to tell you to DIY or they become liable for your work.
I would never tell anyone to "just do it" as I never know what people's skill level is.
Just ask yourself, how many badly built locosts are out there?
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
quote:
Who would you rather have work on your wiring, a Part P bricky/builder or a 25 years experienced, 4 year apprenticed, Electrician
He did advise them the first time...He even drew wiring diagrams for them and they still managed to get it wrong...
The problem is that, its not just a case of connecting the modules together, you actually have to use your brain, and finding an electrician in his
area to wire a plug, let alone a heating system is a bit of a mission
ISTR Most of the regs only really bite if your house is new enough to have the latest wiring colours.
quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
to an existing ring - yes you can.
Check diynot.com or similar (google it) some very knowledgeable blokes there.
To get an item certified as safe the local building control have to come out. They charge £100 ish for small jobs and £300 ish for a full rewire I believe.
I know cos when I come to sell my house I am going to have pay to gett he new consumer unit checked by them. The ass that installed it said he was part p qualified, sent round an idiot to do the install and then refused to register it. He said if i told building control I'd get into trouble. need to call him actually. thanks for the reminder!
quote:
ps
Q. How many social workers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. 10. 0 to actually change the bulb but 10 to write "how to deal with darkness".
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
Who would you rather have work on your wiring, a Part P bricky/builder or a 25 years experienced, 4 year apprenticed, Electrician
As an engineer who now does vehicle wiring in a firm of sparkies I'd NOT necessarilly trust any time served sparkie to wire a plug. Like all trades you get good and bad.
IMHO you know the risks and you take the chances at your own risk. Therefore if your confident you won't have any problems and no one will no any better. The fact that the "competent" people have already done the job sub standard would make me want them back to do it right while your friend informs and supervises them to do it to his spec.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
ISTR Most of the regs only really bite if your house is new enough to have the latest wiring colours.
quote:
Originally posted by Aboardman
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
ISTR Most of the regs only really bite if your house is new enough to have the latest wiring colours.
but they where selling the new coloured wire before part p came in so how will anyone know, that it was not done before the part p came into force.
quote:
Originally posted by nitram38
If you are found out or have an accident, then £5000 fine.
Part P is just another way of generating income. I am a City and Guilds Qualified Gas Service engineer with 25 years of experience but cant now work
in that field without going to college and passing a test for every type of appliance I would want to work on. I have been advised that it would cost
£5000 to resit them all. While working for british gas a flat exploded due to an unqualified person disconnecting a cooker and leaving an open ended
pipe. When the case went to court he was not prossecuted as he did not know what he was doing !!!!!! I would do it yourself 
[Edited on 20/11/07 by Bigheppy]
quote:
Originally posted by andyharding
quote:
Originally posted by nitram38
If you are found out or have an accident, then £5000 fine.
What's your source of this information?
Well to supplement your brain's lack of accuracy here's a quote from "The Electricians Guide to the 16th Ed of the IEE Wiring Regs
BS7671 and Part P of the Building Regs" page 237 section 11.9.3:-
"All replacement work is non-notifiable even when carried out in a kitchen or in another special location..."
So ignoring the question of the guys competence to do the job at least it is "legal" in the eyes of building control for him to replace some
C/H parts.
quote:
Originally posted by Bigheppy
Part P is just another way of generating income. I am a City and Guilds Qualified Gas Service engineer with 25 years of experience but cant now work in that field without going to college and passing a test for every type of appliance I would want to work on. I have been advised that it would cost £5000 to resit them all. While working for british gas a flat exploded due to an unqualified person disconnecting a cooker and leaving an open ended pipe. When the case went to court he was not prossecuted as he did not know what he was doing !!!!!! I would do it yourself
[Edited on 20/11/07 by Bigheppy]
By far the best thing if you have questions about Part P is just to read the "offical" document which can be downloaded here:-
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf
[Edited on 20/11/07 by andyharding]
Why do all these electricians mumble on about 4 year apprenticeships, and 20 years experience. Yes people can do courses to get Part P registration,
but it's then down to the organisation (NICEIC, ECA etc), to come out and make sure they're up to standard. So if you use a part P spark,
then you get the re-assurance that they have public liability insurance, have been assessed etc.
Personally I think it's a load of cock, the people that are making the most cash out of it are the likes of the NICEIC etc.
As for your mates ch wiring, well as has been said, repairs to faulty and damaged wiring are non notifiable, so if it ain't working like it
should, it's faulty isn't it?
They'll be tellin us we can't clean our windows next unless we part Z qualified ladder operators.
To##ers
quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
quote:
Originally posted by Bigheppy
Part P is just another way of generating income. I am a City and Guilds Qualified Gas Service engineer with 25 years of experience but cant now work in that field without going to college and passing a test for every type of appliance I would want to work on. I have been advised that it would cost £5000 to resit them all. While working for british gas a flat exploded due to an unqualified person disconnecting a cooker and leaving an open ended pipe. When the case went to court he was not prossecuted as he did not know what he was doing !!!!!! I would do it yourself
[Edited on 20/11/07 by Bigheppy]
I'm presuming you work for yourself?
Somehow we've been told that as its a big company we work for and that they have an electrical division.. as a company we can carry out part P work even tho the people that are doing the work aren't electricians or part P qualified... sounds dodgy but fesable to me.
[Edited on 20/11/07 by MkIndy7]
The last time this came up on here someone confidently said you could work on your own installations - it was only if you were earning money that you needed the registration. Is this not so ?
quote:
Originally posted by Macbeast
The last time this came up on here someone confidently said you could work on your own installations - it was only if you were earning money that you needed the registration. Is this not so ?
part p was allegedly caused by a fatailty from bad wiring, however im led to believe that the main aim was to get tradespeople who do electrics for
money up to a suitable standard. A 3-5 day course isnt enough to get joe blogs wiring competantly, however if someone has already been wiring (maybe
badly) for years then it does polish the finer points well, and also gets them testing and certifying. It doesnt stop cowboys (even ones with 4 year
prenticeships and 25 years experience!) from working, evidenced by the fact that i see diabolical electrics daily and VERY few people have been
prosecuted, even when caught.
I believe there is no penalty if the wiring is in accordance with BS7671, minor faults incure a £50 per day penalty until rectified. BS7671 does say
all work must be tested and certified though.
I dont believe this is like for like work, since it is being changed. However, assuming you have a certificate from when it was first done, there
should be no problems legally.
I did an NIC domestic installer course a few years back when part P came about, since i was already doing electrics daily in the course of fitting
kitchens. Still havent got round to the NIC site inspections because i now work for a company who are themselves registered.
and yes, i did a lot of gas work yesterday for nowt, hence legal. Not as bad as it sounds, i sorted two leaks and tested it properly when finished.
Food for thought. I understand there were around 25 electrocutions in the home per annum before this was brought in. Number now ? My guess about the
same.
Another labour party jobs for the boys piece of legislation. Dont produce anything just have people training people to assess people. HIPs the
same?
Finally as an IET Incorporated Electrical Engineer (telecoms as a specialism) I also cant legally wire anything. Believe me low voltage high current
is just as scarry.
What would be better is good clear instructions which people can use not a tome written in code subject to interpretation by a lawyer when something
has happened.
Ian
Part P was created to get the building trade cheap labour.
20 years have seen the lack of proper apprentiships and therefore a lack of skilled labour to do the work.
For the last 5 years hourly rates for electricians has barely moved ( I am talking dayworkers) as there has been a glut of eastern europeans who will
work for next to nothing.
I am lucky, I work in a very technical enviroment and I get paid more than the average electrician. My qualifications and my experience got me the
job, not a 3 day part P course.
Employers and agencies are now realising that these "electricians" can't do the same work as the older brigade and I must get 10 calls
a week trying to lure me away.
Ask your Part P builder to re-terminate a pyro, or wire a star delta motor. Do they know what a PDU or a PDP is?
Anyhow the original question was answered a long time ago.
What is the guy trying to do anyway, that isn't a normal heating set up?
Instead of complaining, do some homework and find a decent electrician to do the job.
He's either asking the wrong person, or what he is suggesting is something that they don't want to be associated with.
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
He already did find a decent electrician...himself!
As far as I understand, he has a pair of air source heatpumps and a hot water boiler all connected together with various temperature probes around the
place to switch things on and off according to loads and temperature outside etc...
Although the company that installed it "specialise" in that sort of thing, they didnt really have a clue...it took them 2 FULL days of
working just to wire the thing up and its still not right...
My friend was looking at the possibities of using a microcontroler to 'process' the temperature signals and then control the heating....
The whole point of the control system is to make the heating efficient and simple to run....its neither at the moment!
Insidentally....if your too old to do a traditional appretnaship to learn the skills, and not "qualified" enough to get a basic job in the
sector..where does one start?
Appologies for the typos..im tired and typing like a spaz
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
The wiring for this should be easy, it's the microprocessor programming that is the main problem.
The best system is a trend BMS system. You would need a PC and outstation interface cards, but this would be off the scale.
The cheapest is a PC with a card from RS.
Surely this has been done before so there must be a ready made bit of kit to do this?
It just occurred to me, why not use immersion heater thermostas that wrap around the outside of your tanks (if your temp range is within this
band)?
These will provide a simple N/O or N/C circuit and would be reasonably cheap.
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
Actually I have been designing the circuit for him (Hence why I have an interest in legality)...
based around a programmable IC using optoisolator T-drivers and Triacs to switch the various system components... The program will be written in
BASIC and is relativley straightforwards once you get your head around it...
The biggest issue is keeping the IC isolated from everything else so it behaves itself..lots of snubbers and filters im thinking 
Was just trying to get my head around the input side of things, short of using relays to step the 230V signal down to 5V other options looked a bit
OTT...Hey ho..lol
It does use as many standard N/O N/C temp stats, but a few inputs are having to be designed a bit more ....You could actually do what we want to do
with logic, but it would end up being so complicated...
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
part p was allegedly caused by a fatailty from bad wiring, however im led to believe that the main aim was to get tradespeople who do electrics for money up to a suitable standard. A 3-5 day course isnt enough to get joe blogs wiring competantly, however if someone has already been wiring (maybe badly) for years then it does polish the finer points well, and also gets them testing and certifying. It doesnt stop cowboys (even ones with 4 year prenticeships and 25 years experience!) from working, evidenced by the fact that i see diabolical electrics daily and VERY few people have been prosecuted, even when caught.
I believe there is no penalty if the wiring is in accordance with BS7671, minor faults incure a £50 per day penalty until rectified. BS7671 does say all work must be tested and certified though.
I dont believe this is like for like work, since it is being changed. However, assuming you have a certificate from when it was first done, there should be no problems legally.
I did an NIC domestic installer course a few years back when part P came about, since i was already doing electrics daily in the course of fitting kitchens. Still havent got round to the NIC site inspections because i now work for a company who are themselves registered.
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Actually I have been designing the circuit for him (Hence why I have an interest in legality)...
based around a programmable IC using optoisolator T-drivers and Triacs to switch the various system components... The program will be written in BASIC and is relativley straightforwards once you get your head around it...
The biggest issue is keeping the IC isolated from everything else so it behaves itself..lots of snubbers and filters im thinking
Was just trying to get my head around the input side of things, short of using relays to step the 230V signal down to 5V other options looked a bit OTT...Hey ho..lol
It does use as many standard N/O N/C temp stats, but a few inputs are having to be designed a bit more ....You could actually do what we want to do with logic, but it would end up being so complicated...
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
Unfortunately the tank stat and pipe stats currently in situ are all mains opperated and give a mains signal, as do the time clocks. (although
potentially they could all be altered to just switch a relay rather than supply 230V) But that gets complicated.
All of the ouputs to heaters etc are less than 2A peak (each) as they are simply 230V AC signals to trigger the various heaters (With exception to the
two and three port valves) so optoisolators and triacs is overkill to keep things over engineered
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Unfortunately the tank stat and pipe stats currently in situ are all mains opperated and give a mains signal, as do the time clocks. (although potentially they could all be altered to just switch a relay rather than supply 230V) But that gets complicated.
All of the ouputs to heaters etc are less than 2A peak (each) as they are simply 230V AC signals to trigger the various heaters (With exception to the two and three port valves) so optoisolators and triacs is overkill to keep things over engineered
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
I have set up a system to integrate a straw boiler/solar in a heating system. I have used standard thermostats (which can switch 240V) to
switch a 24V supply signal triggering relay logic to start/stop the various pumps, valves etc. You could do a similar thing using 5V switching relays
(avaialable at RS etc). Also temperature switches set for fixed temperatures are available in NC/NO types for about 1.20 each from RS.
I am thinking of making the system more sophisticated using temperature sensors and PIC micro for the control, probably not until next summer
though!
Incedentally, since my setup only draws about 5A max out of the mains, and is plugged in via a 13A standard socket, do the new regulations apply as it
isn't a part of the fixed mains wiring of the house?
The key phrase is competentcy. And who decides if you are competent???? certainly not a piece of paper that says you are.
The MOST dangerous electrical household opertion carried out every day in life countless times is changing a light bulb. Picture it if you please a
bulb breaks while in your hand exposing the live conductors inside and electrocuting you. AH you say but the light was turned of. How do you know
it's turned of in a two way switched circuit?? Do you always turn the power off at the mains (as you should) to change a bulb?? I very much doubt
it I know that I dont unless the said bulb does start to come away from the metal cap. I therefore state that we can ALL be incompetent at times (when
we know we should not) accidents happen and mistakes are made(that's why pencils have rubbers on the end).
I still say IF your freind has the ability and confidence to do the job and understands the risks and proper procedures then go for it.
If a light switch is installed correctly then that will tell you if it is off or not.
Something that your home DIYer probably doesn't know.
quote:
If a light switch is installed correctly then that will tell you if it is off or not.
HughPinder said:
quote:
is plugged in via a 13A standard socket, do the new regulations apply as it isn't a part of the fixed mains
quote:
You do not need to tell
your local authority’s
Building Control Department
about:
repairs, replacements and
maintenance work; or
extra power points or lighting
points or other alterations to
existing circuits (except in a
kitchen or bathroom, or
outdoors).
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
quote:
If a light switch is installed correctly then that will tell you if it is off or not.
Huh..... If you have say one light controled by two or three different switches the "on" position for each switch can change from top to bottom very easily, so you wouldnt neceserily know what state each switch and the circuit was actually in...would you?
Wider use of 12v lighting is one of the reasons for the new regs apparently thre have been a few cases of badly over heated wiring because some idiots
didn't realise 12 volt wiring has to carry 20 timesthe current for the same job.
As regards automation best approach is a fanless PC motherboard and suitable software. I was going to suggest software called Autom8it to control it
but Autom8it seems to have gone belly up.
quote:
Then you should turn the circuit breaker off!
its a silly question really! If the bulbs in one piece of course you dont switch it off, if its smashed then you would be mad to try swapping it without isolating the supply and wearing a good glove.
It got to be cheaper/easier to use a logig module surely?
They start at about 60 odd quid.
0 -10v analogue inputs for themocouples,etc. VERY simple software.
http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/searchBrowseAction.do?Nr=avl%3auk&N=4294963485&name=SiteStandard&forwardingPage=line&R=4798082&c
allingPage=/jsp/browse/browse.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@2062422210.1195839773@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdiaddmigmdigkcefeceeldgondhgg.0&cacheI
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Actually I have been designing the circuit for him (Hence why I have an interest in legality)...
based around a programmable IC using optoisolator T-drivers and Triacs to switch the various system components... The program will be written in BASIC and is relativley straightforwards once you get your head around it...
The biggest issue is keeping the IC isolated from everything else so it behaves itself..lots of snubbers and filters im thinking
Was just trying to get my head around the input side of things, short of using relays to step the 230V signal down to 5V other options looked a bit OTT...Hey ho..lol
It does use as many standard N/O N/C temp stats, but a few inputs are having to be designed a bit more ....You could actually do what we want to do with logic, but it would end up being so complicated...
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
Chears for the offer...
The first microcontroler based protoype has just sucessfully considered an input, processed it, and switched the correct output....
Another couple of days on the design and I should be able to produce a PCB...Then all I have to do is get started on the final software for it to
run...