http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1052488_chaos_fear_in_fuel_demo
Bikers fuel protest the boys in leather kick ass
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1052488_chaos_fear_in_fuel_demo
beginning of the end for gordo,s police state?
Great, a huge number of innocent people seriously inconvenienced, and not a scrap pf difference to the situation.
John
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Great, a huge number of innocent people seriously inconvenienced, and not a scrap pf difference to the situation.
John
I quite enjoyed the poll tax riots, maybe it's time to find the old balaclava out?
If we were French there would be piles of burning debris through out the land, but, and I hesitate to say this, but we don't have the moral fibre
any more - basically we'll stand for anything in this country these days. Speed cameras were the thin end of the wedge and if you stand up to
anything you're labelled as a "granny killing speeder" or you're "trying to destroy the environment".
The PC brigade have won, get used to it.
/rant
cheers
The opressed masses
(To any solicitors/people who have problems with irony, I was not personally involved in the poll tax riots nor do I condone or encourage rioting or
any form of civil disobedience, contents may settle during transit etc)
its going to be big its in Wigantoday
http://www.wigantoday.net/wigannews/Bikers-will-ride-to-protest.4149183.jp
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
quote:
Originally posted by Mr henderson
Great, a huge number of innocent people seriously inconvenienced, and not a scrap pf difference to the situation.
John
well boo hoo to them Mugs who don't mind paying through the nose for fuel ,Tax ,fags booze ,food ,etc ,but the rest of us DO give a Shit about over priced commodities in this Country ,So good on the Fella
woodster - 4/6/08 at 09:28 PMthe people in power in goverment don't give a sh1t.. my local MP Ruth Kelly doesn't pay council tax she claims food, morgage, travel cost, child care, on expenses... how would she know how I live .. the worlds a different place when you don't have to save for that new kitchen on your second home you just get joe public to pay
JoelP - 4/6/08 at 09:37 PMwell, it seems that oil is rising in price partially due to an investor bubble, similar to the housing bubble, so maybe prices will fall in time.
However, i still believe that oil is a bad habit that needs kicking. We are slaves to OPEC, and the sooner as we manage to kick oil, the better.
hillbillyracer - 4/6/08 at 11:30 PMIt is'nt the tax that's made the fuel so expensive though is it? At 68p per litre it's not much over half the cost, a couple of years ago it was more like 3/4 of the cost so as a percentage of the total price the tax has gone down.
I'm not saying the high tax that we pay on fuel is a good thing but it is'nt the reason behind the current high prices.
Of course the VAT has increased as a pecentage with the fuel & a lot has been made for the goverment there.
Just as big a problem is not how much tax we pay but how it's spent/wasted!
D Beddows - 5/6/08 at 07:39 AMThat's what p*sses me off the most..... we can't do anything about the cost of oil and it's a fact of life that if the government didn't get the money from fuel duty they'd just take it off you somewhere else........ but the vast sums of extra money they get from VAT as the price of fuel goes up is just taking the p*ss especially as it's our money which is supposedly to be spent for the country's benefit yet we'll almost certainly never see any actual benefit from it
DaveFJ - 5/6/08 at 08:12 AMNice little statistic on the mornign financial news today....
as a nation we fork out over 44Bn pounds a year to the government to own a car, once you add up all teh different duties we pay...
the total government investment in ALL forms of transport for the UK is 8Bn....
No wonder public transport is a joke and our roads are so crap!
02GF74 - 5/6/08 at 08:38 AMquote:
Originally posted by chrisg
I quite enjoyed the poll tax riots, maybe it's time to find the old balaclava out?
But we still ended up with the council (aka poll) tax, other than one or two rioters ending up with a TV or video from Dixons, the end result was what?
Bottom line is fuel: leccy, gas and petrol is going up in price and unless you nuke India and China, is not going to go down.
The rising cost of fule is not due to the tax but cost of the raw material.
I cannot see this government lowering the tax.
mr henderson - 5/6/08 at 09:15 AMquote:
Originally posted by woodster
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Great, a huge number of innocent people seriously inconvenienced, and not a scrap pf difference to the situation.
John
and you would do what ???..... nothing??
.... Gordon Clown the man who invented U turns may think capping the tax maybe a good idea
Perhaps you would like to explain how a large number of people blocking the roads in Manchester etc is going to have any effect whatsoever in Whitehall and Westminster. The only people who are ever inconvenienced by these ridiculous protests are people who have no power whatsoever to do anything about it.
No, I don't have an alternative suggestion, but if there is a solution it lies in the direction of actually affecting the people who have the power to do something about it, and those people are not trying to drive around Manchester
John
D Beddows - 5/6/08 at 09:21 AMI'm guessing here that you didn't actually have first hand experience of poll tax?? Council tax is just a more expensive version of rates which every household paid already anyway, where as poll tax had to be paid by every individual regardless of whether they owned a house/rented a house/lived with their parents/lived in a tent etc etc and I shudder just thinking back to it
.
I don't think we're saying that the government is responsible for the rising cost of fuel, just that they're getting a huge amount of extra money as it goes up because VAT is a percentage tax rather than a fixed tax and it will just disappear somewhere and the country will never see the benefit.......
Jubal - 5/6/08 at 09:28 AMquote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonPerhaps you would like to explain how a large number of people blocking the roads in Manchester etc is going to have any effect whatsoever in Whitehall and Westminster. The only people who are ever inconvenienced by these ridiculous protests are people who have no power whatsoever to do anything about it.
No, I don't have an alternative suggestion, but if there is a solution it lies in the direction of actually affecting the people who have the power to do something about it, and those people are not trying to drive around Manchester
We actually had to work round this this morning. Just set off earlier as the start time was well publicised. Even after having to get up early I'm still a supporter. In this country we do far to much whining and not enough doing. It's great to see someone organise something about an issue that affects us all.
I'm sure we'd all like to see trucks blocking Downing St but this isn't France and I'm glad. These protests as they stand are scary enough for a government already on the back foot.
DaveFJ - 5/6/08 at 09:39 AMHow long before they invoke the 'prevention of terrorism umbrella' and arrest them all?
I read the other day how one local authority was using the prevention of terrorism laws to enable them to spy on suspected income support fraudsters!
Just another example of how we have gone so far wrong...
In many ways this country is becoming like America in the 70s, only it's "terrorists under the bed" rather than "Reds".....
whats this got to do with fuel protests? not a lot until the goverment start acting on it by arresting people rather than trying to resolve the cause of the issue...
woodster - 5/6/08 at 12:21 PMquote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by woodster
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Great, a huge number of innocent people seriously inconvenienced, and not a scrap pf difference to the situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest
protest can work sitting at home doing nothing changes bugger all
and you would do what ???..... nothing??
.... Gordon Clown the man who invented U turns may think capping the tax maybe a good idea
Perhaps you would like to explain how a large number of people blocking the roads in Manchester etc is going to have any effect whatsoever in Whitehall and Westminster. The only people who are ever inconvenienced by these ridiculous protests are people who have no power whatsoever to do anything about it.
No, I don't have an alternative suggestion, but if there is a solution it lies in the direction of actually affecting the people who have the power to do something about it, and those people are not trying to drive around Manchester
John
mr henderson - 5/6/08 at 12:22 PMquote:
Originally posted by Jubal
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonPerhaps you would like to explain how a large number of people blocking the roads in Manchester etc is going to have any effect whatsoever in Whitehall and Westminster. The only people who are ever inconvenienced by these ridiculous protests are people who have no power whatsoever to do anything about it.
No, I don't have an alternative suggestion, but if there is a solution it lies in the direction of actually affecting the people who have the power to do something about it, and those people are not trying to drive around Manchester
We actually had to work round this this morning. Just set off earlier as the start time was well publicised. Even after having to get up early I'm still a supporter. In this country we do far to much whining and not enough doing. It's great to see someone organise something about an issue that affects us all.
I'm sure we'd all like to see trucks blocking Downing St but this isn't France and I'm glad. These protests as they stand are scary enough for a government already on the back foot.
No one, least of all me, is saying that those people who feel that the government could do something about fuel prices should 'do something about it'. What I am saying is, have a go at the people who can do something about it, not the poor innocent motorists in Manchester.
As for it frighening the government? Don't make me laugh! A few traffic jams around Manchester, yeah, very frightening I'm sure!
John
MikeR - 5/6/08 at 12:44 PMactually its very frightening ..... think about it, you've got (a modern form of) revolt going on. You're own people are turning against you.
And this isn't 1 or 2 loonies, this is a large number of people who are supported by an even larger number.
Last week it was in wales and london, this week Manchester. What needs to happen now is one of two things.
1) nothing (gov. happy)
2) big protest in another major urban area, Birmingham for example. This will reinforce the view to the gov. that they have a major problem. After brum .... then the risk is we all join in and 'stop the country'. This has a larger impact and on and on.
Basically we're heading down a long and winding path at the moment with one of two outcomes,
a) all out total world war for oil & the decimation of the human race & planet
b) alternative power and the delayed decimation of the planet and then human race.
Put it another way, as much as i want kids i do wonder what legacy we're going to leave them or their grandchildren.
mr henderson - 5/6/08 at 01:56 PMquote:
Originally posted by MikeR
actually its very frightening ..... think about it, you've got (a modern form of) revolt going on. You're own people are turning against you.
That's just my point, it isn't frightening at all. Nor is it a revolt. People have always disagreed with the government, but that hasn't been a successful revolutiion since the Roundheads, and they only won because they had an army and were using it, not blocking roads.
smart51 - 5/6/08 at 02:04 PMquote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Basically we're heading down a long and winding path at the moment with one of two outcomes,
a) all out total world war for oil & the decimation of the human race & planet
b) alternative power and the delayed decimation of the planet and then human race.
Given that the oil industry expects world production of fuel oil to peak in the next 3 - 5 years plus the ever growing demand of the new industrialising countries, the above opinion is probably what will drive people towards fuel efficiency, rather than climate change.
woodster - 5/6/08 at 02:24 PMBikers cheered by car drivers .. could be people have had enough
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4071480.ece
mr henderson - 5/6/08 at 02:45 PMquote:
Originally posted by woodster
Bikers cheered by car drivers .. could be people have had enough
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4071480.ece
From that article-
"Salford garage owner, said: “I think it’s brilliant. It’s a pity they’re not blocking off Downing Street and London too.”
Absoutely. That might at least have got noticed, wouldn't have done anything, but would have got noticed.
MikeR - 5/6/08 at 02:53 PMquote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
actually its very frightening ..... think about it, you've got (a modern form of) revolt going on. You're own people are turning against you.
That's just my point, it isn't frightening at all. Nor is it a revolt. People have always disagreed with the government, but that hasn't been a successful revolutiion since the Roundheads, and they only won because they had an army and were using it, not blocking roads.
Ah, i'm not making my point. We are a nation that does not protest. We moan, we groan and generally get on with it. The fact that people can be inconvieneinced by this and still not complain means there is something large underfoot. From a Gov. perspective that should be frightening. The fact the Gov. can't really stop or influence this is frightening (yes they can lower tax but will then have to raise it on something else eg food or alcohol & that won't stop the basic oil price rising). Plus this isn't a national campagne this is grass roots and local.
Here's a little side story, no idea if its true or not and can't verify it but its interesting. Friend of a friend was one of the organisers of the last fuel protest. The story is, he quickly backed down as he got a visit from some men in suits late one evening.
Now this could be complete bull (the most likely option). It could be that the protest was taking too much time so he backed down and people invented the story to stir up feeling, it could be true and the suits could be from the gov. or the oil companies. It could be that he couldn't buy fuel in town and realised that he needed fuel after the protest and backed down.
What ever, the last protests where national, where effective and fell apart when the national organisation stopped. These protests are apparently groups of like minded people being inspired by others. Much harder to co-ordinate nationally but even harder to stop, and worryingly much easier to blame for other things (which i'm going to stop now before i get a knock on the door and a suited man karts me away for suggesting things).
There are tipping points with everything. The next three to six months have every chance of being a major tipping point in this country - if only cause we change gov.
Jubal - 5/6/08 at 03:13 PMquote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonAs for it frighening the government? Don't make me laugh! A few traffic jams around Manchester, yeah, very frightening I'm sure!
The British public is apathetic about almost everything. The best they can usually manage is an online petition. Any gathering of this nature will be taken seriously. Of course, it's not likely to directly affect anything but it will make a difference to the way politicians think about the situation.
You have to remember that outside election time demos are one of the few tools available to the public to show their voice en masse. They are hard to organise and those who actually go are the tip of the iceberg. This is shown by the generally supportive comments about this event.
Jasper - 5/6/08 at 03:15 PMWhilst I don't like high fuel prices, it's certainly having an effect on the habit of motorists. How many people on here are thinking of getting a car with better fuel economy for the commute, or think twice about taking their car out?
And only today on the news they were saying how the sale of 4x4's have dropped dramatically.
I've even started cycling to work, keeps me fit and saves me loads of ££££....
However public transport is a joke in Brighton - two of us got the bus the other day, only about 2 miles max, and it was £6.40 return!! Would have been cheaper to take the car and park.....
So whilst it may be painful I do think it's having a good effect on our motoring habits, unfortunately in the big scheme of things globally what we do in the UK has such as a small effect it's almost not worth bothering with, unless China and India do the same....
chrisg - 5/6/08 at 03:44 PMIt'll stop all those nasty poor people blocking up the road for us plutocrats, that's got to be good.
I earn £500,000 a year a bit extra tax and petrols not going to bother me.
(unless I crash and there's no nurses at the hospital because they can't afford to drive there)
Is there no "solution" to the enviromental/congestion problem that doesn't involve pricing the less off out of their cars?
a fair way?
Cheers
Chris
mr henderson - 5/6/08 at 04:36 PMquote:
Originally posted by Jubal
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonAs for it frighening the government? Don't make me laugh! A few traffic jams around Manchester, yeah, very frightening I'm sure!
The British public is apathetic about almost everything. The best they can usually manage is an online petition. Any gathering of this nature will be taken seriously. Of course, it's not likely to directly affect anything but it will make a difference to the way politicians think about the situation.
No it won't. The government are already very well aware that the fuel prices are extremely unpopular.
quote:
Originally posted by Jubal
You have to remember that outside election time demos are one of the few tools available to the public to show their voice en masse. They are hard to organise and those who actually go are the tip of the iceberg. This is shown by the generally supportive comments about this event.
The only thing demonstrations like this (and virtually all other ones) do is to kid the people taking part that they are 'doing something'. Well, they are doing something, but the thing that they are doing is wasting their own time, and the time of everybody else who gets caught up in it.
Like I said, the government already knows.
Perhaps those who think the tax on petrol should be reduced would suggest where else that revenue could be raised.
Cutting the MP's salaries and benefits would be a very popular move, but probably wouldn't take as much as 1p off the price of fuel.
mistergrumpy - 5/6/08 at 06:47 PMI was on a quite serious job today on a main road whilst in uniform when a load of protestors came past on bikes. I gave them a crafty wave and thumbs up. The buggers went mad bipping horns and revving engines and waving.
Jubal - 5/6/08 at 08:33 PMquote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonThe only thing demonstrations like this (and virtually all other ones) do is to kid the people taking part that they are 'doing something'. Well, they are doing something, but the thing that they are doing is wasting their own time, and the time of everybody else who gets caught up in it.
Like I said, the government already knows.
Glass half empty kinda guy eh? Nothing will change, so no point doing anything? I'm glad not everyone thinks like that.
quote:
Perhaps those who think the tax on petrol should be reduced would suggest where else that revenue could be raised.
Cutting the MP's salaries and benefits would be a very popular move, but probably wouldn't take as much as 1p off the price of fuel.
No-one's saying it isn't a difficult issue but no reason things can't be discussed. All the demonstraters are doing is opening those discussions the only way they know how.
andyps - 5/6/08 at 09:40 PMI was at Birch services this morning when they set off. I wasn't there to protest, it just happened to be the time I was around.
For anyone who says the protesters caused delays you are wrong, the delays and closures were caused by the Police. Basically, as the protest left anyone else was blocked from leaving the services (that was me!) and anyone on the M62 had to wait on the motorway until they were all on their way, the protesters being followed by two police cars (4x4's actually, so nice and green
Not only that, there was a copper stood at the exit from the car park the protesters were leaving from with a video camera on a tripod which was obviously filming everyone as they left, so those involved will now all be on record for being involved. If you think that is OK try filming the Police and see what reaction you get. Last time I was told we apparently live in a free democracy, but it looked much more like a Police state to me this morning.
More revolution please!
mr henderson - 6/6/08 at 07:14 AMquote:
Originally posted by Jubal
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonThe only thing demonstrations like this (and virtually all other ones) do is to kid the people taking part that they are 'doing something'. Well, they are doing something, but the thing that they are doing is wasting their own time, and the time of everybody else who gets caught up in it.
Like I said, the government already knows.
Glass half empty kinda guy eh? Nothing will change, so no point doing anything? I'm glad not everyone thinks like that.
Starting to get a tiny bit personal there! I haven't said there is no point in doing anything! I have said there is no point in blocking roads!!
quote:
Originally posted by Jubal
quote:
Perhaps those who think the tax on petrol should be reduced would suggest where else that revenue could be raised.
Cutting the MP's salaries and benefits would be a very popular move, but probably wouldn't take as much as 1p off the price of fuel.
No-one's saying it isn't a difficult issue but no reason things can't be discussed. All the demonstraters are doing is opening those discussions the only way they know how.
They are not opening discussions, they are blocking roads. And before you say they didn't block roads, but that the police did, well, maybe that was the way it worked out, but it was their intention..
andyps - 6/6/08 at 08:31 AMquote:
Originally posted by mr henderson I haven't said there is no point in doing anything! I have said there is no point in blocking roads!!
So what do you think they should do?
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonThey are not opening discussions, they are blocking roads. And before you say they didn't block roads, but that the police did, well, maybe that was the way it worked out, but it was their intention..
I don't think the intention was specifically to block roads, but it is an outcome of the demonstration that they will be using road space, one lane on the M62 would have taken them all yesterday and not blocked the road. It was the Police that blocked the whole road. That was a deliberate action by the Police which caused inconvenience to many not involved which could have easily been avoided had they used different methods. But then we might all think protesting is a good idea and do more of it, and the more that happens the less chance the Police have of controlling us and they and the government couldn't allow that to happen. It's for our own good of course, we don't understand and aren't as clever as those in power
woodster - 6/6/08 at 09:14 AMi think the next ones being planned i don't know the date yet ....... 22nd june was mentioned
Jubal - 6/6/08 at 09:48 AMquote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonStarting to get a tiny bit personal there! I haven't said there is no point in doing anything! I have said there is no point in blocking roads!!
You said they were wasting their time. I was picking up on that. I accept that maybe you're not apathetic. But I think they achieved some goals with this demo so we'll have to agree to differ.
quote:
They are not opening discussions, they are blocking roads. And before you say they didn't block roads, but that the police did, well, maybe that was the way it worked out, but it was their intention..
If getting the issue on national tv, making us talk and getting others talking up and down the country isn't opening discussions then I don't know what is.
