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Hamilton verdict
MikeCapon - 23/9/08 at 02:06 PM

Was this not supposed to have been delivered this morning according to the FIA?

WTF are they playing at? Hoping we all forget it to save them even more embarrassment?

MikeCapon - 23/9/08 at 02:20 PM

No surprise here then.
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/ica/ica08/Pages/ica_230908.aspx

Paul TigerB6 - 23/9/08 at 02:27 PM

They lost the appeal!!! What a surprise!!!

linky

smart51 - 23/9/08 at 02:27 PM

"Apeals against drive through penalties are not admissable". Why then have a hearing? They could have decided that two weeks ago.

Gets them off the hook though.

Paul TigerB6 - 23/9/08 at 02:30 PM

More here on ITV

Myke 2463 - 23/9/08 at 02:32 PM

Simple answer............paint all F1 cars red and not get noticed by officials. Red cars have different rules to all other colours.

BenB - 23/9/08 at 02:36 PM

What a load of rollocks.

They're saying it's inadmisable because you cannot remove a drive-through penalty after the race has finished.

On that rationale you shouldn't be able to add one on afterwards either!!!!!

Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid....

speedyxjs - 23/9/08 at 02:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Myke 2463
Simple answer............paint all F1 cars red and not get noticed by officials. Red cars have different rules to all other colours.



They seem to have tried that with Vodaphone sponsorship. Obviously doesnt work

Paul TigerB6 - 23/9/08 at 02:41 PM

Just so long as the championship goes down to the last round, it seems the FIA will do whatever it takes to get it to that point (and so long as the red cars end up winning of course)!! So we have 4 races left. Whats the odds on Lewis getting another dodgy penalty before the end of the season.

Just one problem with painting all the cars red......... Ferrari will undoubtedly claim that McLaren stole the paint code, which was in the technical info passed to McLaren last year, and so are would clearly be utilising technical info gained.

$100m fine and McLaren docked 10 points per car at every race for the next 5 years as suitable punishment

loggyboy - 23/9/08 at 03:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
They lost the appeal!!! What a surprise!!!

linky


Not really, as there was no appeal to loose.

DaveFJ - 23/9/08 at 03:53 PM

Love this gem also.........

quote:

The FIA also rejected McLaren's claim that the precedent of a successfully appealed penalty involving Toro Rosso's Vitantonio Liuzzi last year be followed.


The judges said the Fuji case was not relevant because "none of the parties concerned had raised the inadmissibility of the appeal in that case."

Still in reference to the Fuji case, the ICA added: "the Court was able, in the conclusion of its decision, to declare the appeal admissible, but it did not give reasons for its decision on the issue, as the question was not debated."

"Consequently that judgment does not present itself as settled law with respect to this question and does not bind the court in the present case," the court said.

chris-p-duck - 23/9/08 at 03:54 PM

Well they were never going to change anything as by doing so kinda says 'we don't know what we are doing and the teams know better'. Plus having a hearing has got lots of people talking about F1 and some more column inches. Personally I think that the whole F1 arena is turning into a farce and an expensive one at that. Bring on a breakaway championship run by someone with more than 2 braincells to rub together and with interests in proper racing and not lining their own pockets.................

Rant over!!!

Chris

Paul TigerB6 - 23/9/08 at 03:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chris-p-duck
Well they were never going to change anything as by doing so kinda says 'we don't know what we are doing and the teams know better'. Plus having a hearing has got lots of people talking about F1 and some more column inches. Personally I think that the whole F1 arena is turning into a farce and an expensive one at that. Bring on a breakaway championship run by someone with more than 2 braincells to rub together and with interests in proper racing and not lining their own pockets.................

Rant over!!!

Chris



Amen to that!!!

Phil.J - 23/9/08 at 03:57 PM

Pinched from Uphill Racers:

A must have extra for Ferrari owners/drivers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Got a Ferrari?

Not quite good enough at driving?

Are the other boys faster than you in the wet?

Then you need:

Ferrari International Assistance (FIA)


This exclusive Ferrari only membership club has many benefits. Including:

- Anti overtaking assurance
Been overtaken? Feel a bit silly? Don’t worry, we’ll rule out the other party, even if it’s embarrassingly obvious that they’re faster than you

- Exclusive access to a secret ‘second lane’ in the pits
Just to make things a little bit easier we’ve arranged a private second lane , just for you

- Guaranteed world championship?
Had a crash? Need to win the world championship? Don’t worry just limp across the track and take off your nearest championship title contender – we’ll do the rest

-A bit strapped? Need extra cash?
Simply get one of your team to tell someone else how you make your cars.

- Bits falling off your car? Looking a bit dangerous?
At Ferrari International Assistance we operate a ‘blind eye’ policy just for Ferrari drivers

- Been a bit silly? Taken off another driver whilst following the safety car?
It’s ok, as long as you didn’t hurt yourself. I mean, who are Force India anyway? And how dare they be in front of you

-A bit bored? Want some extra action?
With FIA plus you can take part in a number of additional membership activities

- Not sure when you might need us next?
Relax. Check out our track record. We’re confident that we’ll be able to make something up on the spot that will get you out of any pickle that you might find yourself in

Ferrari International Assistance
Making it up as we go along for over 100 years

omega 24 v6 - 23/9/08 at 04:55 PM

Mc Laren have been ordered to pay the costs.WELL THERE'S A FUC*ING SURPRISE

Still reckon Lewis will win the championship. McLaren could also win the constructors given that of late Ferrari can't seem to get 2 cars to the finsh line.
Now I'm off to see if my local college does rain dance lessons.

After all every little helps.

mr henderson - 23/9/08 at 05:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Phil.J


-A bit bored? Want some extra action?
With FIA plus you can take part in a number of additional membership activities


Hellfire - 23/9/08 at 05:51 PM

"However, had the appeal been heard and the judges found against him, it is possible the penalty could have increased."

Why don't McLaren stop whingeing, take their punishment on the chin and focus on racing. They should have been kicked out of F1 for copying Ferrari's car anyway. Cheating gits.

Come on you reds..............

Phil

locogeoff - 23/9/08 at 06:07 PM

quote:

Pinched from Uphill Racers:

A must have extra for Ferrari owners/drivers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Got a Ferrari?

Not quite good enough at driving?

Are the other boys faster than you in the wet?

Then you need:

Ferrari International Assistance (FIA)


This exclusive Ferrari only membership club has many benefits. Including:

- Guaranteed world championship?
Had a crash? Need to win the world championship? Don’t worry just limp across the track and take off your nearest championship title contender – we’ll do the rest


Well that was Shumacher on both occasions I can recall, the first was in a Beneton taking off Hill, the second, trying to take off Jacques Villeneuve whilst driving for Ferrari was unsuccessful on the track and heavily punished by the FIA, at the time anyway!

quote:

-A bit strapped? Need extra cash?
Simply get one of your team to tell someone else how you make your cars.


And Ferrari benefitted financially how?


quote:

- Been a bit silly? Taken off another driver whilst following the safety car?
It’s ok, as long as you didn’t hurt yourself. I mean, who are Force India anyway? And how dare they be in front of you


Eh? It wasn't behind the safety car, and I believe he lost control way before the Force India car was in the equation, really unfortunate but not as if they where wheel to wheel and Kimi did not show adequate respect for another driver. and poor safetty car etiquete has been far better demonstrated by Hamilton tthan any other this year.


quote:

Ferrari International Assistance
Making it up as we go along for over 100 years


Like the OP making up facts for their own means

Sorry for being so anal but remember that McLaren where heavily fined for lying to the FIA rather than for having the Ferrari IP, they where told that their behavior would be under scrutiny this year, what do you expect...

[Edited on 23/9/08 by locogeoff]

russbost - 23/9/08 at 06:15 PM

""Apeals against drive through penalties are not admissable". Why then have a hearing? They could have decided that two weeks ago. "

Yes, but then they wouldn't have been able to charge McLaren the costs - after all got to keep the jobs for the boys y'know

westf27 - 23/9/08 at 06:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
"However, had the appeal been heard and the judges found against him, it is possible the penalty could have increased."

Why don't McLaren stop whingeing, take their punishment on the chin and focus on racing. They should have been kicked out of F1 for copying Ferrari's car anyway. Cheating gits.

Come on you reds..............

Phil



we know were you live

phoenix70 - 23/9/08 at 06:53 PM

Hooray, I'm not alone, there are other Ferrari Fans out there.

Correct verdict today, Mclaren should pay the cost as it was them that brought the appeal even though the rules state that a drive through penalty cannot be appealed. The 25 sec penalty was in leu of a drive through because it happend within the last few laps of the race..... oh and you can blame Ferrari and M Schumacher for that too. It was after Schumy served a stop and go after the race finished that they changed the rules (British GP 1998)

Forza Ferrari

Scott

[Edited on 23/9/08 by phoenix70]

[Edited on 23/9/08 by phoenix70]

Mark Allanson - 23/9/08 at 08:35 PM

I don't know why everyone is getting so excited, the whole thing is scripted, this year they are using a script from the early seventies, but changed the names of all the teams except one, the ant hill mob wouldn't go under cover for anyone!

omega 24 v6 - 23/9/08 at 09:13 PM

quote:

They should have been kicked out of F1 for copying Ferrari's car anyway. Cheating gits.

OH yeah team hellfire? And what car is that then?
1 The one that won't go round corners on a street circuit (monte what's is face is already complaining about the night race street circuit.)
2 The one that won't stay on the track when it's wet or greasy (5 spins for Massa at silverstone)
3 The one that has trouble finishing the race
or
4 the one that is magnetically attracted to solid walls. (various from the last few races).

Lets face it McLaren are still going to win a title it's just a case of how many.

MikeCapon - 23/9/08 at 09:27 PM

Make the most of this moment of smugness Ferrari fans. You'll all be a lot quieter in 4 races time. I know where my money is.

Paul TigerB6 - 23/9/08 at 11:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:

They should have been kicked out of F1 for copying Ferrari's car anyway. Cheating gits.

OH yeah team hellfire? And what car is that then?
1 The one that won't go round corners on a street circuit (monte what's is face is already complaining about the night race street circuit.)
2 The one that won't stay on the track when it's wet or greasy (5 spins for Massa at silverstone)
3 The one that has trouble finishing the race
or
4 the one that is magnetically attracted to solid walls. (various from the last few races).

Lets face it McLaren are still going to win a title it's just a case of how many.


I'm with you there!! The two cars are so far apart only an idiot would think McLaren have copied the Ferrari this year!! The two cars are so far removed in their true strengths that McClaren would have so little to gain by copying!! They clearly didnt copy the engine - the McLaren doesnt break down every 5 mins!! They clearly didnt copy the chassis - the McLaren handles in the wet, and in the dry is so much harder on its tyres - their strengths are in different areas which simply proves it!! If McLaren had set out to build a car as far removed from Ferrari as they could, well they would end up with what they have now!! I'm surprise at you team Hellfire - never thought you'd be daft enough to try that one!!

phoenix70 - 24/9/08 at 12:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:

They should have been kicked out of F1 for copying Ferrari's car anyway. Cheating gits.

OH yeah team hellfire? And what car is that then?
1 The one that won't go round corners on a street circuit (monte what's is face is already complaining about the night race street circuit.)
2 The one that won't stay on the track when it's wet or greasy (5 spins for Massa at silverstone)
3 The one that has trouble finishing the race
or
4 the one that is magnetically attracted to solid walls. (various from the last few races).

Lets face it McLaren are still going to win a title it's just a case of how many.


I'm with you there!! The two cars are so far apart only an idiot would think McLaren have copied the Ferrari this year!! The two cars are so far removed in their true strengths that McClaren would have so little to gain by copying!! They clearly didnt copy the engine - the McLaren doesnt break down every 5 mins!! They clearly didnt copy the chassis - the McLaren handles in the wet, and in the dry is so much harder on its tyres - their strengths are in different areas which simply proves it!! If McLaren had set out to build a car as far removed from Ferrari as they could, well they would end up with what they have now!! I'm surprise at you team Hellfire - never thought you'd be daft enough to try that one!!


I think hellfire was refering to the fact that they should have been banned this year for being in possesion of the specs for LAST years car, you know the one that one both the Drivers and Contructors championships.

Paul TigerB6 - 24/9/08 at 12:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by phoenix70
I think hellfire was refering to the fact that they should have been banned this year for being in possesion of the specs for LAST years car, you know the one that one both the Drivers and Contructors championships.



Well for starters. the McLaren design for 2008 was so heavily scrutinised right through the design / construction stage to make damned sure it didnt contain any elements of the Ferrari 2007 design - you know, the one that won both the drivers (by Lewis gifting it through dumb mistakes) and constructors (that the FIA gifted by chucking out McLaren) championships, and the one that i'm sure Ferrari must have used as the basis for the 08 design, that you could pretty much ensure the McLaren this year wouldnt emulate the Ferrari car.

So they (mCLaren) should have been punished doubly then - is that what you're saying?? So a $100million fine and stripped of the constructors championship points for the 2007 year wasnt enough?? Who here thinks throwing out McLaren this year would have lead to the self destruction of Formula 1?? Was it not a Ferrari employee (Stepney) who stole the info in the first place or does that not count then?? As far as I know, only one employee of McLaren (Coughlan) ever saw that info so does that justify destroying any sort of competiton in F1??? I was headhunted for a job with Shell / Ferrari F1 and how glad am i now i turned it down!! The whole sport stinks of corruption, bias and result fixing.

[Edited on 24/9/08 by Paul TigerB6]

phoenix70 - 24/9/08 at 04:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
Well for starters. the McLaren design for 2008 was so heavily scrutinised right through the design / construction stage to make damned sure it didnt contain any elements of the Ferrari 2007 design - you know, the one that won both the drivers (by Lewis gifting it through dumb mistakes) and constructors (that the FIA gifted by chucking out McLaren) championships, and the one that i'm sure Ferrari must have used as the basis for the 08 design, that you could pretty much ensure the McLaren this year wouldnt emulate the Ferrari car.

So they (mCLaren) should have been punished doubly then - is that what you're saying?? So a $100million fine and stripped of the constructors championship points for the 2007 year wasnt enough?? Who here thinks throwing out McLaren this year would have lead to the self destruction of Formula 1?? Was it not a Ferrari employee (Stepney) who stole the info in the first place or does that not count then?? As far as I know, only one employee of McLaren (Coughlan) ever saw that info so does that justify destroying any sort of competiton in F1??? I was headhunted for a job with Shell / Ferrari F1 and how glad am i now i turned it down!! The whole sport stinks of corruption, bias and result fixing.

[Edited on 24/9/08 by Paul TigerB6]


The reason the new car was heavily scrutinised was to allow them to be entered into this year competition, if they hadn't, they may well of been kicked out (BTW I agree that wouldn't of been good for F1)
Oh and the reason for the harsh punishment was due to the fact, at the first hearing where they were found guilty but not punished at all, they LIED. At the second hearing it was proven that a number of McLaren staff had seen or knew about the Ferrari documents including at least two of their drivers and it wasn't just 'One rogue member of staff'



[Edited on 24/9/08 by phoenix70]

andyps - 25/9/08 at 07:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by phoenix70

The reason the new car was heavily scrutinised was to allow them to be entered into this year competition, if they hadn't, they may well of been kicked out (BTW I agree that wouldn't of been good for F1)
Oh and the reason for the harsh punishment was due to the fact, at the first hearing where they were found guilty but not punished at all, they LIED. At the second hearing it was proven that a number of McLaren staff had seen or knew about the Ferrari documents including at least two of their drivers and it wasn't just 'One rogue member of staff'



[Edited on 24/9/08 by phoenix70]


And if you read the transcripts of the hearing (I can send you a copy if you would like) you will see that there was no lie in the first hearing - the people asked genuinely did not know that others had seen it, and those that had all told Coughlan to get rid of the documents and they didn't want to see them. The only exceptions to this seemed to be Alonso and De La Rosa who discussed whether they should try using C0* in the tyres (sorry, we aren't supposed to know what the gas was) as they believed Ferrari were doing, and what the red cars weight distribution was - something they would almost certainly already have a good idea of because they watch whenever cranes lift cars, and would make no difference to McLaren who had alreaady established their set up for 2007. As soon as Ron Dennis found out that he had not been given all the information he should have been for the hearing he telephoned Max Mosley to give the facts, which was largely what the second hearing was based on. At the first hearing the truth was told by those telling it. If you read the full transcript of the second hearing you will see that there was absolutely no evidence that McLaren cheated or copied any part of the Ferrari design - the findings of the hearing were that there was no evidence, just suspicion. Suspicion would never hold up in a real court, as opposed to the FIA Kangaroo court.

And why, through all of this and since have the FIA never bothered to ask Stepney about the information that went the other way? He has said it happened - in other words, Ferrari got confidential information from McLaren. but of course, Max Mosley, that well known non Nazi president of the FIA, wouldn't want to know that a team which has very strong links to the fascist Italian governments of the past had done anything wrong, especially something which might undermine the credibility of the team which amongst other things pay for his official FIA office in Monaco. It would be absurd for him to investigate anything which could lead to him having to confess that Ferrari might do anything wrong.

There is one team which has repeatedly cheated in F1, either through team or driver actions, yet rarely seem to get punished for it, and if they do the punishment is inconsequential ($10000 dollar fine to a driver who wears a $120000 wrist watch for example). Now which team is that????

And as another point, why do McLaren have to pay the costs of Ferrari sending a lawyer to cross examine Lewis Hamilton about an incident to which Ferrari were a witness. The FIA were the judges, Ferrari had no need to be there other than as witnesses and interested parties. Witnesses as their telemetry would display that Lewis did not gain an advantage as he was slower than Kimi at vital points between the Bus Stop and La Source, and interested parties as their driver was gifted a race which nobody could say he had any right to win. But where were the other interested party, BMW? If Ferrari had a right to be there, so did BMW, but either they weren't invited, or have more respect for the sport than to get involved in politics.

MikeRJ - 25/9/08 at 08:45 PM

I'm shocked that any British person would support Ferrari when we have the best team in F1. Perhaps the FIA are also engaging in some kind of brainwashing?

andyps - 25/9/08 at 09:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I'm shocked that any British person would support Ferrari when we have the best team in F1. Perhaps the FIA are also engaging in some kind of brainwashing?


It isn't so much supporting Ferrari I have a problem with. It is the fact that the Ferrari supporters in general seem to not realise or accept that their favourite team is favoured by the sports regulator.

Even a couple of their ex-employees (Niki Lauda and Eddie Irvine) now see it, so why the blinkers from others?

RK - 25/9/08 at 10:23 PM

Why does Bernie always get ignored in these conversations? Everyone knows it is he, and nobody else, who controls F1, and obviously he is given a lot of money by various sponsors. He's probably just given a little more by the Ferrari ones to "put things right" every now and again. The irony is that everyone talks about trying to make everything level again post-MS, and it's the opposite of what we have seen.

andyps - 26/9/08 at 01:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RK
Why does Bernie always get ignored in these conversations? Everyone knows it is he, and nobody else, who controls F1, and obviously he is given a lot of money by various sponsors. He's probably just given a little more by the Ferrari ones to "put things right" every now and again. The irony is that everyone talks about trying to make everything level again post-MS, and it's the opposite of what we have seen.


Up to last year I would have agreed with you, but there have been changes in teh relationship between the billionaire dwarf commercial rights holder and the non nazi president of the regulatory dictatorship. Whilst they used to work together to line each others pockets, there seems to have been moves by the Max Mosley to excert complete power over everything he possibly can. I don't know why that would be, maybe it was a thought he had whilst sitting naked drinking a cup of tea with a group of whores, thinking how he had just had them doing what he wanted, and maybe he could get the same in other areas of his life.

Whatever the reason, Bernie does not seem to have the same level of control as previously. Witness the comments made by Bernie in terms of the current and previous world champions not being good champions for the sport, but the non nazi regulator trying everything possible to ensure that a person with skin that could not be described as fair coloured does not become champion, even though Bernie has implied he would be good at the "job".