out of curiuosity has anyone heard of a rolling road company locking/password protecting the ECU, and not giving the car owner the code? Just had a call from a pal who had a new Omex ECU fitted and then mapped by a RR specialist ( quite well known )....he'd had a few issues with the engine and decided that it needed tweaking. Took it to another RRoad that is far more local only for them to find that the other compnay had password protected the ECU which meant that the map wasn't accessible. And yes he did call the original compnay asking for the code and was told that he couldn't have it.

In other fields that wouldn't exist - a developer might come and do a couple of hours work to help set up a database for example, but clealry he wouldnt password protect it to his advantage.....

so i wondered if anyone else had ever heard of this type of practice? my own car has been mapped at 2 different places with no issues, so have other Lowcosters experinced anything similar?

Obviously if someone is told - ' oh and by the way this map will be locked and you will only ever be able to bring the car back here for a remap' - then fair enough, but i can't imagine that many folks would take up such a draconian offer!

I would say that's highly unethical!
Not sure about legalities? I suppose you could argue it's technically theft as they have stolen part of it's functionality, or that they have wilfully partly broken it when in their possession.

If I were your pal, I'd write a polite, but firm letter to this company (what ever he does, don't rant at them), requesting the password as it his property and they have effectively broken it. If they don't comply, sent them an invoice for a new ECU, threatening to go to press (car tuning mags?) or with legal action.

It's probably also worth talking to OMEX as they may have ways of unlocking them.

ive come accross this with EVO's as the tuner wants to protect their work. most ECU places can unlock it but it loses the data on the mapping.

i would speak to Omex direct as they seem very helpfull and i thought open with their software to see if there is a 'administration' type code that could be used to get around the RR restricted access one they have applied

Can it still be mapped 'from scratch'? I.e. is it just the previous RR map that can't be accessed?

quote:

---

Originally posted by scootz
Can it still be mapped 'from scratch'? I.e. is it just the previous RR map that can't be accessed?

---

Omex - believe it or not they cant help - although they were helpful in not being able to help if you know what i mean ( i called them on his behalf as he was sitting at the other RRoad place )....there is no overide code that they have.

I believe that it can be remapped from scratch, but there's the rub. Dont know about you folks, but my own maps were very good but after a while i decided that i needed a tweak as a tiny flat spot became evident after driving the car for a while....
so in the case above would i be happy paying £xxx hundred to have it mapped,and then have to throw away that info to start all over again - when in reality it just needs a quick tweak!

Have to say that it seems a highly dubious business practice, especially as the map is of little use to anyone else ( reworked head/cams etc).

No doubt he will write a polite letter, and it'll be interesting to see what teh response is....of course meantime he's wasted a booked slot at anoher RR and taken time off during a working day to get it there. It's weird as i'd heard good things about this company in general.

Bilbo. IT is a great example. If i employed a developer to pop into my office to help set up a database for a few hours i wouldnt expect him to walk away with the one bit of knowledge that ties me into him, i've employed him to do a specific task - for my ongoing benefit.
On the other hand if i subscribe to an IT service ( ie/ a downloadable Database that i use i would expect / respect that fact that i have now ownership or rights to that product).

[Edited on 1/9/11 by greenwood03]

Name and shame please as I wouldn't want to get caught out by this draconian practice..... at least if people are forewarned they can ask for it not to be done

quote:

---

Originally posted by greenwood03
Omex - believe it or not they cant help - although they were helpful in not being able to help if you know what i mean ( i called them on his behalf as he was sitting at the other RRoad place )....there is no overide code that they have.

I believe that it can be remapped from scratch, but there's the rub. Dont know about you folks, but my own maps were very good but after a while i decided that i needed a tweak as a tiny flat spot became evident after driving the car for a while....
so in the case above would i be happy paying £xxx hundred to have it mapped,and then have to throw away that info to start all over again - when in reality it just needs a quick tweak!

Have to say that it seems a highly dubious business practice, especially as the map is of little use to anyone else ( reworked head/cams etc).

No doubt he will write a polite letter, and it'll be interesting to see what teh response is....of course meantime he's wasted a booked slot at anoher RR and taken time off during a working day to get it there. It's weird as i'd heard good things about this company in general.

---

I work for a company designing exhibitions and when I send a design to a client I am well aware that they can take the design to another company and say 'build this'. I have even seen people using my work and calling it there own. It happens all the time. When you work in design you must be aware that your stuff will be ripped off wether its a chair or a ECU map. It happens.

In my opinion the RR company are utterly in the wrong. If I paid a for a artist to paint a picture and then after a month I decided it needed a hat on the picture I would just paint it on with a 3 inch brush. Thats up to me.

If it was me I would write politely to the company ask for the codes. If I was still refused I might think of taking it further. Shame there are not any copyright specialists on here

To clarify:

It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.

The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.

The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.

This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g. ginetta championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.

Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.

Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.

hope that helps

colin.

That is a strange way to be, in my opinion. One is paid for work. Work is done. What is the problem? The ECU belongs to the owner of the car, and the map is part of that; ie. I am paid to install a water pump. I don't lock it on so nobody but me can have access to the inlet, or change the pump in any way once installed. Graphic artists, as mentioned, have dealt with this for years.

That said, you have to run your business how you see fit, and proceed accordingly. You also have to accept that it may cost business in the long run. It sounds like Microsoft business practices, which have been, shall we say "widely criticised".

name and shame - save us all loads of grief

quote:

---

Originally posted by atspeed racing
To clarify:

It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.

The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.

The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.

This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g. ginetta championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.

Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.

Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.

hope that helps

colin.

---

While the mapper is paid for their work, that work can be re-sold to someone with a similar engine arrangement - it's a bit like software copyright. The solution is to use an ECU that doesn't allow it.

i work at a University and the issue of IP crops up fairly often for us. mostly who owns the IP is driven by who pays for the work. so if you get 50% funding for a project you get 50% of IP rights to the outcome, but if you pay 100% you get everything.

(this is all foreground IP; new stuff generated under the project. background IP is usually excluded as its all the previous know how we have that allows us to do the project in the first place)

i think the company could argue that they install you the map to use and you pay them for that map which you can then use.

what they dont do (it seems in this case) is sell you access to the code to develop their products further. which from my perspective seems ok, but i can see clearly how annoying this is if you dont know thats what you're paying for.


[Edited on 1/9/11 by swanny]

I understand mappers may want to protect their time & files from file theft - But if they are locking it down to prevent copying of the file then fair enough, but not the ecu as thats not theirs.

Its probably of more use here to know who it is , so we can avoid the same problem.




This is a debate seen often on the ecu forums, some are happy to share while others say nowt.



Its a people thing, not anything to do with engine mapping. Stick a line on the DTA forum for base maps , you will get a zero response, maybe even an arsy reply.


Likewise the ecuproject, it all gets a bit touchy when it comes to sharing, which I understand but thats not where I sit.


Anyone got a base map for a Rotrex Blackbird engine then ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jossey
ive come accross this with EVO's as the tuner wants to protect their work. most ECU places can unlock it but it loses the data on the mapping.

---

quote:

---

It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.

The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.

The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.

This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g. ginetta championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.

Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.

Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by atspeed racing
To clarify:

It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.

The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.

The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.

This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g. ginetta championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.

Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.

Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.

hope that helps

colin.

---

Makes me glad I've got a megasquirt!

I'm pretty sure this would fall under the computer misuse act as you asked them to tune your car, not lock you out of functionality of your computer (which is what an ECU is after all). Ask for a copy of the document you signed where you explicitly agreed to them doing this.

I don't see a problem with either approach, but the customer should be made aware of what they are and aren't buying before the service is provided.

When you buy a piece of software for your PC (say MS Word), you don't expect to get the source code so you can tweak it do you? You just get the functionality provided by that software. Same with ECU mapping, if you are just buying the functionality of a working car, you don't own the source code. If on the other hand you are paying them to write YOU a map, you do own it. It all depends what service you are buying and that needs to be made clear in advance.

It's not illegal or unethical, but given that's it's not standard practice in this industry, they should really make it clear before starting, and potentially offer an alternative option where the customer takes posession of the IP at extra cost.

[Edited on 1/9/11 by matt_claydon]

I can see the point of locking access if its for a race series that specifies it must be.
If I was taking the car to them for a 'normal' tune, I would expect to be told in advance that the map would be locked, so that I could choose to go elsewhere. After all the nature of kit cars is that you do tweak them every now and again.
Regards
Hugh

Matt, i agree entirely.
IF a service provider makes their terms clear then that's understandable - the buyer can then make an informed decision to go ahead or not - with the knowledge that in this case he'll never be able to do aything to that map without taking it back to the provider.

However, in the specific instance of mapping if you have a new ECU installed and then ask the company to map it i'd have thought that you are indeed asking them to build YOU a custom map that works to the best of their abilities with your engine.
Which to my mind is different to having an ECU fitted and then asking them to pop an 'off the shelf' map on which is a generic map that they hold the rights to 9 and which obviously would cost substantially less ( one would assume ) to purchase.

Certainly if i'm in the position of paying someone teh best part of £100 an hour and getting a bill at the end for £3-400 i'd expect ( unless forwarned ) that the map is mine to do with as i'd like.

I wonder how many folks who read this thread will be asking a few extra questions next time they approach a mapping company.

My opinion on this, based on experience I have with writing software for people (which is essentially the same thing), is that there are two scenarios:

1. The client pays for a finished product at a set price. If I have to write this for them the final price is agreed in advance. This comes with an agreed level of support for any bugs, but any additional tweaking from the original spec is additional work and chargeable. If they want a second copy they pay again. This is is how most (big) software companies work - I'm talking Microsoft, Adobe, etc.

2. The client pays me to write something for them and they'll get an estimate of hours based on their spec. If it takes less time they pay less, if it takes longer they pay more. They may well have to provide hardware for development. This is generally for custom written stuff that is sold for a specific purpose to a specific customer. The entire source code is provided so they can modify (or use another person to modify) as they wish, and pass on to whoever would need it, but in general the audience is few and far between.

IMHO the kind of mapping performed on a rolling road falls into catagory two, unless you agreed a fixed price for a 'map for an XYZ car'.

However, the kind of remapping I do with GX Tuning is catagory 1, as it's sold at a fixed price for a fixed application and doesn't require the car to go on a rolling road.

Chris

[Edited on 1/9/2011 by ChrisW]

Chris - that's a spot on anology.
Clearly building a custom map for a car is in your scenario 'category 2', whereas an off the shelf 'chip' is 'mass produced' and is therefore available at a lower fixed cost with clear restrictions.

Taking this into more general tuning.....an old school expert mechanic wouldn't charge a fee to set up the timing/carbs etc and then sabotage the installation so that only he could work on the car!

quote:

---

Originally posted by greenwood03
Taking this into more general tuning.....an old school expert mechanic wouldn't charge a fee to set up the timing/carbs etc and then sabotage the installation so that only he could work on the car!

---

Makes me glad i've got PCV with Autotune!

I think the said company should come back on here to say they made a mistake not letting the guy know it was going to be password protected before they started, and just give him the password to prove they are a decent company!

fair idea Johnny.
as an aside -----Imagine that he'd sold that car to someone else who in turn finds that the map is locked, you'd be dead chuffed as the buyer to be told that its only them that can tweak the map!
Let's hope that common sense prevails.....

i fully appreciate everyones opinions on this, it is a very grey area.

but allow us to explain further reasons from the tuners perspective.

we once tuned a car for a customer. several months later we receive an email from another company about the very same car, where the engine had gone wrong. We requested the map file to be sent to us. The map file was NOT the one we had created, it had been edited and adjusted by the end user with dramatic consequences....

Now, in the days of everyone wanting to sue everybody, Password protecting an ECU is a tuning companies only way of safe guarding themselves. Which is why from then on where available, we lock all our maps.
What do we do on carburettors? our race engines? they are all sealed.
We stand by and guarantee our work - and this needs protecting.

If customers have problems with maps etc, we resolve them free of charge. sometimes even small alterations we dont even need the car.. e.g changed gearboxes and crank sensor angle, customer sends the ecu to us and we alter the timing angle to suit. but generally once mapped correctly by professionals.. the customer will not need to access it.

Also i do not want other tuners getting hold of my information, experience, how i map the cars etc. its extremely valuable information. as someone has said on here, you wouldnt write a computer code, then willingly let someone copy and paste it. Its years of development and work that a competitor now has hold of and can use and adjust to suit other cars...

Hope people can appreciate that view.

Now of course i can also see the perspective from the customer too. So we keep ALL maps on file.

BUT we DO NOT give out our password to anyone, customer or tuner. This can allow access unknowingly to any of our maps.

However, we can send a copy of the UNLOCKED file to the customer (via email/cd) upon request. but upon doing so, we are no longer responsible for the file or its use. but in doing so, also means i have released a lot of information possibly to competitors. So of course we prefer our map only to be accessed by us.

in short.. its a grey area, we appreciate its a potential problem and assist where possible - but we have to cover our ass!

hope that helps

- colin.

[Edited on 1/9/11 by atspeed racing]

That's a very fair responce

Also understand what you say about how you tune a car with your own experience could be useful to another tuner.

Hopefuly everyone is happy now

Colin, many thx for responding - i trust that the guy in question will be satisfied with receiving an unlocked copy of his map.

I appreciate that you gurantee your tuning - albeit i'm not sure what the guarantee covers, but surely it would be more practical if you are concerned about the guarantee issue to make it clear that any changes to your maps voids any such guarantee?
I imagine that amending a map is like amending any other electrocnic file - it leaves a date / time stamp when it was altered - ergo any date change would void that guarantee and absolve you of blame?

I understand your concerns about letting your knowledge 'walk out teh door' by means of copyig, although as you say a competitor would have to adjust that 'base' information to suit another car, i'd have thought it was that extra bit of knowledge - the 'adjusting it to suit another car' that someone pays for? After all with the amount of books, internet articles etc that are out there i'd imagine that certain tining principles hold good whatever the application and the real tuners worth of knowing how to tweak to suit an individual application.

From a purely personal perspective i don't see/uphold the analogy of the computer programming in the light that you refer to. As Chris W mentioned in one of his posts there are clear differences between having source code copied or providing a coded product for a customer for this use ( in any way that he wishes to use that code/product). Either way i'd have thought that this situation today has perhaps highlighted the need to be a clearer upfront with customers so that they can make a choice as to whether to proceed under those terms of business.

Again, it's good that you've come onto the thread to put your point of view across.
cheers Mark

The above 'tuners' perspective rings true I still don't think it should be applied to kitcars. If I take my Golf GT TDI to a remapper I expect them to have heavily tested the map on a identical car and them upload this map straight to my car. I can fully appreciate them locking this map as its a off the shelf product which is discounted to a lower price for the mass market. You wouldn't want someone getting hold of your heavily developed map and spreading it around.

But a kitcar surely is a different thing. Each one is bespoke. If you hire a mapping company to write you a bespoke map for your bespoke car surely it's yours to do with what you wish. If the client tampers with the map surely that voids any form of warranty.


Interesting topic and as said above 'we will be all reading the small print from now on'.


[Edited on 1/9/11 by Irony]

I have heard about such practices as a way to protect what software they may have put onto the ECU to gain the performances the guy went there for anyway. Difference is, they openly tell you thats what they will do and you have to agree in writing before hand. If for whatever reason and want someone else to tweek it, they offer a a free of charge service to return the ECU to they way it was before, but its all in an effort to protect their software.

Whether its legal....whether its commercially the right thing to do....is it cricket? Who knows. The fact they inform you prior to doing anything and with your consent, i'm guessing its perfectly legal, but i am no lawyer. You could argue that by an after market co. doesnt matter who they are are technically tampering with the intellectual property rights of the manufacturer.........food for thought.

Playing devils advocate here ( STATEMENT OF FACT> I can see both sides of the argument). However, from the point of view the person purchasing the services of a 'Tuner', does the supplier of the tuning services make it 'Crystal Clear' at Point of Contact, Point of Service AND Point of Completion of Service, that locking of ecu codes 'Will' be done where it is 'Possible' to do so. If this is NOT done then it is arguable that the 'Customer' would have a case in court regardless of intent or reason as these were not the terms and conditions that the 'customer' thought he was entering into. If intelectual property (reasoning) is good for one person, then it is equally valid for the other.

Just my 2p's worth.

right then
i am the guy to whom all these posts refer,
that is to say, it is my map that is locked.
having now spoken to Colin at "AT SPEED "
he is sending me an unlocked copy of the map
my thanks to him for a positive response.
my thanks also to MARK G for starting this thread
and achieving this happy result with the help from all those
who have posted an opinion.

many thanks fellas

regards

graham b

www.southernkitcars.com

[Edited on 1/9/11 by graham b]

Here is my take on this:

If the Tuner (ATS or any other following the same practice of locking the map) specifically declares in the contract T&C's that the IP sits with them and the map will be locked then that is clearly legal. Additionally if you charge less for the service to retain the IP then that is a defencable position and buyer beware. I would understand the application on the ECU being locked but it is less common for the config file to have IPR and therefore be locked?

However the two reasons you give as to why you lock down the configuration file (map) are conflicted in my opinion;

1. Protect you from being sued by someone tinkering with the map and causing damage. - Understand but the map contains a timestamp audit trail and given you retain a copy of the map for reference then you would have no problem defending any legal action.

2. You will provide an unlocked copy of the map to the customer. If that is the case then by definition you have lost control of protecting your smarts. Given the engine configuration options open to tuners I personally wouldn't want to use a copied map from someone else in isolation of a RR session anyway as all engines are different.

Isn't your USP that fact that you can tune an engine on your RR efficiently and optimally within the session. The output of that work (the configuration file, map is a by-product unique to that car / engine config / session)? If not then flog the maps without the session as std maps and charge through the nose for the open source product.

Given those points I am now struggling to understand why you lock the maps at all other then for race series? Unless it is to drive repeat business by making people come back for every tune up? If thats the case then that's a restricting practice IMHO and if not illegal then morally iffy.

I understand your comments of explanation I simply fail to understand the logic from what you have said and on that basis I would not spend my hard earned with any company that followed that methodology.

Discuss.

........................Neil

quote:

---

Originally posted by scudderfish
Makes me glad I've got a megasquirt!

---

I think another analogy from the day job is relevant again:

If I set a server system up for someone I'll usually retain the master (aka 'root' password for myself and give them a different password that lets them do everything they need to but not get access to anything critical that could fundamentally break the system.

Some clients insist they want the master password and I'm happy to give it, but before I do so I have a document I get them to sign that basically says (paraphrased) 'Everything on the system is working fine. By accepting the master password, if something breaks in the future, any warranty or guarantee is void and I reserve the right to charge to fix a problem'.

Now, I'm honest with my clients and if they do ask me to fix something and it is my fault I won't charge them, as I'm sure At Speed are. However, in my experience, clients are not always quite as honest - especially when money is involved. In the past I've encountered problems where entire configurations have been changed, the client denies all knowledge, then when presented with the evidence it usually turns out that their son's mate's brother who once did a word processing course 'had a look at it' just before the fault appeared.

I can fully understand what At Speed are saying about locking, but perhaps they should consider a similar scheme. ie if the client wants to sign to accept the responsibility for the map they can have it unlocked/on a cd/whatever. If they'd prefer to keep a warranty, the map is passworded so that they (the tuner) will know that nothing has been changed.

Seems a good way to keep both sides happy to me!

Chris

So why did'nt said tuner offer to email the unlocked map in the first place... or is that too easy

Jonno - exactly! would have saved a whole load of grief. Moreover it would kind of be handy to actually be able to have the code to unlock the version thats on the ECU 9 as opposed to waiting for a copy to be sent through through by email or posted cd )....i assume that this isn't offered as that code is not unique to that customer. Frankly i'd rather have the 'non guaranteed' version from the start as i could then control its use - or rather my ability to access it. Given that the last RRoad that i used for a minor tweak has disappeared i'd have 'lost' the ability to change the map and would be forced to start over again.

'Nash' - agree entirely. I think you've written what many who have read this thread will have concluded, that in reality the locking of a map 'encourages' a degree of repeat business, especially as the customer in question was flatly told that he couldn't have the code before this discussion/thread started.

Greengiant. Yep, agree all the way. IF and its a big IF, terms of business are made crystal clear at the outset there's no argument about locked maps, intellectual property rights or anything else. Again in this case they certainly weren't.

Hopefully Graham will have the copy of his map tomorrow and then he can arrange to take another day off work to get the 'tweak' done.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, frankly i'd never have thought to ask a tuner/rroad if the work that i'd paid for was mine to use as i wanted, clearly if i change my preferred RRoad tuner i'll think to ask a few more questions ahead of handing over my hard earned.....

The legal perspective from an IP lawyer (my wife), which I will paraphrase:
The RR company were paid to configure software that already existed, not create it, therefore the settings belong 100% with the customer and it is their property not the RR company.

The real world perspective from me, which I will paraphrase:
Too right they should provide an unlocked version of the code; how to lose business and alienate people.

[Edited on 1/9/11 by se7ensport]

While this thread exists, maybe Colin can explain why Atspeed will not map leaner than 13.7:1. Their own words and verified by the graph of mixture I recently saw.

The same mixture graph had a slight bump up at each end, and corresponded with upward bumps in the torque and power curves. This indicates that the engine in question, wanted to be leaner than 13.7 to get more power. Yet, it is Atspeed policy(their words) not to map any leaner.

When someone is paying a helluva lot of money to get the engine set up for max power, they should get that, and not a compromised map that the rr company sees as 'safe'.

Same story with ignition timing. Conservative, not optimum.

And the engine in question was supposedly being set up for racing.

It's a shame Tom Airey doesn't do ecu's, but he's the best at carbs and dizzys, and WILL push the limits to find the ultimate option.

Cheers,
Nev.

[Edited on 2/9/11 by Neville Jones]

quote:

---

Originally posted by se7ensport
The legal perspective from an IP lawyer (my wife), which I will paraphrase:
The RR company were paid to configure software that already existed, not create it, therefore the settings belong 100% with the customer and it is their property not the RR company.

The real world perspective from me, which I will paraphrase:
Too right they should provide an unlocked version of the code; how to lose business and alienate people.

[Edited on 1/9/11 by se7ensport]

---

Neville, the thread wasn't intended to be a ' lets have a pop at..' type of thread, infact the compnay in question wasn't named, but ATSpeed were good enough to respond. Given that the original matter is being resolved I think that the thread has run its course. Anything else relating to specific tuning practices and moans isn't really needed here. I know folks that swear by the quality of the company in questions work, and that was never the question/debate at the outset of this topic.

My take on this would be simple. If I paid for someone to apply a generic map for my engine to my ECU then I wouldn't mind if it was locked. I was just paying for them to apply a bog standard map.
If, however, I was paying someone to work on a rolling road, adjusting parameters etc to suit my specific engine / TB combo, then I would feel that I had a right to the produce of those hours on the rolling road IE the map itself.
Surely the whole reason why people get their engines mapped on a RR is because there isn't just a generic "map".

To use the IT situation, when I buy software from a company like Microsoft I don't expect the source-code. If I paid someone to work for me, paying them by the hour to write the source code, I would expect to get the source code and the compiled program.

quote:

---

Originally posted by greenwood03
Neville, the thread wasn't intended to be a ' lets have a pop at..' type of thread, infact the compnay in question wasn't named, but ATSpeed were good enough to respond. Given that the original matter is being resolved I think that the thread has run its course. Anything else relating to specific tuning practices and moans isn't really needed here. I know folks that swear by the quality of the company in questions work, and that was never the question/debate at the outset of this topic.

---

right.....

the CD/map has arrived ....so now to take another day off
to get the tweaks done

quote:

---

Originally posted by graham b
right.....

the CD/map has arrived ....so now to take another day off
to get the tweaks done

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stevebubs

quote:

---

Originally posted by graham b
right.....

the CD/map has arrived ....so now to take another day off
to get the tweaks done

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I trust ATS will be compensating you for this?

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Just to play devils advocate what guarantee do you have that the map sent is the same as the map on your ecu and not a "cut down" version....... personally I would have demanded a refund and gone elsewhere. Best of luck to you anyway hope you get it sorted.

Why do rolling roads lock an ECU?
Not every one is nice. Not everyone is honest. In fact there are some very very horrible nasty people out there that would not lose one moments sleep over any problems that they may instigate as long as they are OK. In fact, this sort of person will think he is really clever and so smart that he will brag to his mates about how he did this or did that and ended up with a pot full of money. Insurance companies, shops and councils have to deal with these freeloaders every day who make fraudulent compensation claims. This means that the all nice people get tarred with the same brush.
Should an ECU not be locked, the nasty customer listens to his mate or someone from a forum (who read a book about cars) who tells him you can get loads more power from your car by running it leaner and with more advance. So they do, but first they box clever and copy the original map saving it to their lap top. When they find out that they cannot run it leaner/more advance because they have now destroyed the engine, they then reinstall the Atspeed map and we find our self liable to be sued.
We had a phone call from a competitor of ours who had a car on his rolling road that we had tuned some months earlier and this customer was ranting about how rubbish we was etc etc.... He had the good manners to call us as this car was so far out of calibration, and guessed correctly that something was not right. So we sent him the file, he installed it and the car ran fine with all the major issues sorted. This customer had meddled with the file on the ECU, messed up and rather than take the blame, slated us.

We started to lock the files after this.

The file is available to the customer upon request. The customer received his file as he requested via post.

Earlier there was a comment about what we set our mixture at. We set the engine at WOT for maximum power whilst still obtaining a reliable state of tune. There is no point running an engine leaner, lets say even if it does make more a few more bhp.. for it to last 2 laps, or lose power as the race goes on. Particularly true on engines running high compression, high rpm etc. Lets face it, there is a fair chance that someone who does this every day for over 20 years may know something you don’t.
Just for the record and to put peoples mind at rest I will list what the manufacturer sets there AFR to at WOT. These cars are all picked at random and are standard naturally aspirated engines.
Renault 12.6...Peugeot 11.6...Fiat 12.3...Honda 12.3...Mitsubishi 10.8...Nissan 10.6...Ford...11.9...Aston 12.8...Hyundai 11.2...Rover 12.2.
The manufacturers are now very keen to make sure that there cars return the maximum economy as possible but also making sure that the car is safe. If they were under the impression that their engines would be safe at a leaner mixture, surely they would do so?
Our recommendations come direct from the ECU manufacturers, they would not recommend us to tune their product if they were not happy with the service or quality of work we do.

There was a comment about us maybe sending the incorrect or a diluted version of the original map. As a company that goes out of there way to help on this and many other forums I find this grossly insulting. Our honesty is not in question here. We give good sound advice on the forums, on private PM's where it may not be appropriate to discuss something on open forums plus the many telephone calls we get. We pay to be on this forum and do all this for free, we do not shout about it, we do it because we enjoy helping everyone and perhaps we will get a few jobs from it. Unfortunately people with complaints shout far louder than those with compliments.

I hope this long reply answers all the doubts you may have had and draws a line under this. We do not lock the file for any profit. Unless you have worked for yourself you would have no idea how nasty some people are and ready to sue at the drop of a hat, this is why we lock our maps, seal our race engines and seal carburetors.

Reading this one with interest.
I would have to agree with Atspeed and the last comments they have made. I cannot get my squirt to run well at anything less than 13.9AFR. Also I would agree with EVERY point made about "my mate did this and knows this etc". Making the map available on request ( I would hope and expect a written request) seems a fair way of protecting themselves against being sued or slated.
Whether or not this should be mentioned prior to tuning or not?? I'd say yes it should be stated its only fair to the client.

quote:

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Originally posted by atspeed racing
Unfortunately people with complaints shout far louder than those with compliments.

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Having had my car tuned at ATSpeed 2 weeks ago I admire their involvment in this thread and their honesty. The only practice they should change is that they should make the customer aware of their practice at outset and what the customer needs to do if they want to go down the road in the future.

Yup! Just tell folks upfront that the map is locked, but you will supply the files if they require and all will be tickety-boo!

If anything, this thread has made me more inclined to use ATSpeed's services... I like the cut of their jib!

quote:

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Originally posted by scootz
Yup! Just tell folks upfront that the map is locked, but you will supply the files if they require and all will be tickety-boo!

If anything, this thread has made me more inclined to use ATSpeed's services... I like the cut of their jib!

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