russbost
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 09:10 AM |
|
|
Electricity storage heaters - Day/night rates
Looking for some advice from a sparky please! 
My daughter lives in a small 2 bed property with storage heater & recently had the meter changed from a "pay as you go" type where you
recharge a "key" to a standard meter.
Because it has a storage heater she asked to be put on a dual rate tariff but the supplier, British Gas, cocked up & put it on a single rate
tariff, now my question is this, whilst the meter is on a single rate tariff does that mean that power would be available to the storage heater during
normal daytime rates?
My understanding was that feeds from the meter were split if you were on a dual rate tariff & that there simply was no power to the heating side
of a storage heater except when the night tariff kicked in, something like midnight to 7am, but that if on the single tariff then if the heater was on
during the day it would still be drawing power?
Since the new meter was fitted her electricity bills have gone up dramatically, about 25 - 30% higher than when on the key meter last year,
she's complained to British Gas who said, "oops, put you on the wrong tariff & they have now adjusted the bill down a little taking
account that some of the power was used overnight, but am I correct that the storage heater would have been drawing power during the day when it
shouldn't be on at all (I assume power for the fans is taken from a separate feed?)
If that's not the case how likely is it that the meter could be inaccurate? British Gas want to charge them £40 for the privilege of testing the
meter if it turns out to be accurate, which would simply add insult to injury! If they attempt to test themselves by, say, turning everything off
& then running a 2kW heater for an hour & checking meter readings b4 & after how accurate is that likely to be?
Any advice welcomed, BG just seem to be fobbing them off & insist that the very high charges are correct (around £900 a year to power an all
electric very small 1 & 1/2 bed terraced house, modern, well insulated, only 2 outside walls)
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
|
|
ttalps2000
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 09:43 AM |
|
|
In a previous house of mine we had economy 7. This only kicked in at around 10pm till about 6am from memory. Outside of those time it would be
dead.
However British Gas are appalling when it comes to things like this. I would advise you to go through the ombudsman as it will be the only way you
will get it resolved. Had to do it in the past and they came to an agreement in the end as it costs them money when them ombudsman gets involved.
|
|
|
ttalps2000
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 09:43 AM |
|
|
In a previous house of mine we had economy 7. This only kicked in at around 10pm till about 6am from memory. Outside of those time it would be
dead.
However British Gas are appalling when it comes to things like this. I would advise you to go through the ombudsman as it will be the only way you
will get it resolved. Had to do it in the past and they came to an agreement in the end as it costs them money when them ombudsman gets involved.
|
|
|
JeffHs
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 09:53 AM |
|
|
I've got a single meter with dual readout. It supplies electricity 24 hours but records the day and night usage separately and my supplier bills
me at two rates. There is no 'dead' period at all. So I guess it depends on the type of meter fitted. (my meter is quite modern, digital
and was fitted within the last 10 years)
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 11:00 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by ttalps2000
In a previous house of mine we had economy 7. This only kicked in at around 10pm till about 6am from memory. Outside of those time it would be
dead.
However British Gas are appalling when it comes to things like this. I would advise you to go through the ombudsman as it will be the only way you
will get it resolved. Had to do it in the past and they came to an agreement in the end as it costs them money when them ombudsman gets involved.
Yes, they want to move the supply from BG, but I don't think you can switch with an outstanding bill unfortunately, so really need to get this
resolved quickly
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
knight19770
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 11:47 AM |
|
|
The storage heater should only be taking a charge through the cheap tariff time at night. As long as you only have one meter and one supply the heater
will be taking a charge all the time. This is why your bills will be much higher. If you can get the metering sorted out, it would worth considering
changing them to the new Dimplex Quantum storage heaters. We are currently fitting lots of these for the local housing associations up in Aberdeen.
These are quite dear to put in as they require two supplies, but are much cheaper to run and will pay for themselves in 4/5 years. These also give
better temp control throughout the whole day.
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 11:58 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by knight19770
The storage heater should only be taking a charge through the cheap tariff time at night. As long as you only have one meter and one supply the heater
will be taking a charge all the time. This is why your bills will be much higher. If you can get the metering sorted out, it would worth considering
changing them to the new Dimplex Quantum storage heaters. We are currently fitting lots of these for the local housing associations up in Aberdeen.
These are quite dear to put in as they require two supplies, but are much cheaper to run and will pay for themselves in 4/5 years. These also give
better temp control throughout the whole day.
This is the thing I'm really unclear about, the meter they have installed does have 2 separate readings for day & night, BUT when they first
installed it they were charging on a single rate tariff, up until about a month ago, when they complained to BG about the tariff they agreed
they'd been charged incorrectly & made a small refund of about £50 taking the night usage at the lower rate , however they have never
explained whether the storage meter feed would have been live during normal daytime electricity whilst on the single tariff.
I guess the question is, is the switching on & off of the night rate electricity controlled by what tariff you are on, or is it something which is
simply controlled centrally & there is a separate feed to the property which is turned on at midnight & off at 7am, I've tried Googling,
but not finding anything?
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
phelpsa
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 12:53 PM |
|
|
Properties that were originally wired for dual rate systems will have a second feed to the fuse box that is switched by the meter/timer. Generally the
off peak emersion / storage heaters would be connected to that side of the system so that they only come on during off peak hours.
If the property only has a single feed to the fusebox then you will need to set timers for the items that you only want to come on during off peak,
and make sure they are synced.
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 12:57 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
Properties that were originally wired for dual rate systems will have a second feed to the fuse box that is switched by the meter/timer. Generally the
off peak emersion / storage heaters would be connected to that side of the system so that they only come on during off peak hours.
If the property only has a single feed to the fusebox then you will need to set timers for the items that you only want to come on during off peak,
and make sure they are synced.
So, if we check now & find that the feed to the storage heater & overnight hot water (separate element) are dead during daylight hours then
that would mean there are 2 separate feeds to the property & changing the meter (providing it has both night & day rates, which this one has)
or the tariff could have no effect on when the storage heater could be switched on?
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
jps
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 12:58 PM |
|
|
I think it basically comes down to "does the property have wiring which is specifically connected to an economy 7 feed and which only works
during economy 7 hours"?
We had a dual rate meter in my current house when we moved in, one of the old fashioned big black box with analogue dial types (and we were on a dual
rate elec tariff). But it was down to us to turn the storage heaters on/off at the right times to use the 'cheap' elec to heat them up.
We have subsequently removed the storage heaters/fitted gas central heating and had the house fully re-wired, including having a whole new elec supply
put in from the edge of the property -which includes a new meter which is just a tiny white box with a couple of buttons and a digital display .
We've also gone onto a single rate tarrif.
But the new digital display meter still produces two readings (you press the button to go through the different readings) - and I have to submit them
both when giving my meter readings to my supplier.
Tarrif just determines what you pay for consumption.
The meter is showing what you've consumed
A dual meter allow for differenttaion of when the consumption happens.
How the electricity is actually sent around your propery is down to the wiring (but not down to the meter I assume?).
|
|
|
jps
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 01:07 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
Properties that were originally wired for dual rate systems will have a second feed to the fuse box that is switched by the meter/timer. Generally the
off peak emersion / storage heaters would be connected to that side of the system so that they only come on during off peak hours.
If the property only has a single feed to the fusebox then you will need to set timers for the items that you only want to come on during off peak,
and make sure they are synced.
So, if we check now & find that the feed to the storage heater & overnight hot water (separate element) are dead during daylight hours then
that would mean there are 2 separate feeds to the property & changing the meter (providing it has both night & day rates, which this one has)
or the tariff could have no effect on when the storage heater could be switched on?
Sorry - cross posted.
I think Phelpsa is saying you won't have "2 separate feeds to the property " as in having two elec supplies. There will be one elec
supply with a meter that can differentiate when the elec is used and, possibly, a device (some kind of timer) that allows that supply to reach some
circuits in the house at economy 7 hours only.
"if we check now & find that the feed to the storage heater & overnight hot water (separate element) are dead during daylight
hours" - in practice that's what matters!!!
[Edited on 20/12/17 by jps]
|
|
|
phelpsa
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 01:08 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
Properties that were originally wired for dual rate systems will have a second feed to the fuse box that is switched by the meter/timer. Generally the
off peak emersion / storage heaters would be connected to that side of the system so that they only come on during off peak hours.
If the property only has a single feed to the fusebox then you will need to set timers for the items that you only want to come on during off peak,
and make sure they are synced.
So, if we check now & find that the feed to the storage heater & overnight hot water (separate element) are dead during daylight hours then
that would mean there are 2 separate feeds to the property & changing the meter (providing it has both night & day rates, which this one has)
or the tariff could have no effect on when the storage heater could be switched on?
There will only ever be one feed to the meter, it's whether the property has a second circuit that is switched by the timer. If all they did was
replace the meter then this is highly unlikely (unless all the wiring was sat there from a previous economy 7 meter). The likelihood is that the meter
has no control over storage heaters and they have been on whenever left on (day or night). If left on during the day this would obviously be metered
as on peak electricity.
Make sure you know exactly when the meter should be switching from your supplier, and confirm that it is.
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 20/12/17 at 01:23 PM |
|
|
So far as I am aware the property was originally wired for economy 7, for instance the second heating element in the hot tank, stays permanently
switched on, but, I believe, was only ever actually on overnight, when they were on the key meter they were using substantially less electricity than
they are now, the problem seems to coincide with changing the meter over (was done in July, but didn't become apparent with increased useage
until Winter months) hence why I am suspicious that something has been done incorrectly, & the fact that they put them on a single tariff just
increases that suspicion
I will check if the hot water & storage heater is getting fed during the day
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
lsdweb
|
| posted on 21/12/17 at 10:53 AM |
|
|
Russ
A lot of modern storage heater systems will have one supply to the fuse box / consumer units. Inside the unit will be a contactor (something like
this) that has a separate switching circuit (low current) to the meter. When the meter switches over to night mode, it
switches the contactor on and this then powers up the storage heaters. This is usually cheaper than having two sets of meter tails if the consumer
unit is a long way from the meter (multi storey flats where the meter is on the ground floor as an example).
When the meter switches over to night mode, all the circuits are on the 'cheap' rate. The contactor just switches on the storage
heaters.
We own a couple of holiday flats (www.llanelli.holiday) that are like this - the supply from the meter (ground floor) to the second floor flat is done
in armoured / SWA cable - it's a long run and expensive in armoured cable so you can understand why they chose the switching circuit method!
The meter will show you straight away if it's a dual tarriff one - there will be two readings or a button to scroll through the readings. If
it's not dual fuel then get them back to fit the right one!
Wyn
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 21/12/17 at 11:25 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by lsdweb
Russ
A lot of modern storage heater systems will have one supply to the fuse box / consumer units. Inside the unit will be a contactor (something like
this) that has a separate switching circuit (low current) to the meter. When the meter switches over to night mode, it
switches the contactor on and this then powers up the storage heaters. This is usually cheaper than having two sets of meter tails if the consumer
unit is a long way from the meter (multi storey flats where the meter is on the ground floor as an example).
When the meter switches over to night mode, all the circuits are on the 'cheap' rate. The contactor just switches on the storage
heaters.
We own a couple of holiday flats (www.llanelli.holiday) that are like this - the supply from the meter (ground floor) to the second floor flat is done
in armoured / SWA cable - it's a long run and expensive in armoured cable so you can understand why they chose the switching circuit method!
The meter will show you straight away if it's a dual tarriff one - there will be two readings or a button to scroll through the readings. If
it's not dual fuel then get them back to fit the right one!
Wyn
Ok, that makes a lot more sense, I've not had a chance to check yet whether there is power available to the storage heater/hot water during the
day, but is it feasible that when fitting the new meter (the meter does have both day & night rate, rate2/rate1) they could have cocked up &
put the storage heaters on the same circuit as everything else?
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
lsdweb
|
| posted on 21/12/17 at 01:04 PM |
|
|
The meter could be setup wrong and could be triggering at the wrong times.
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 21/12/17 at 01:11 PM |
|
|
Many thanks for everyone's assistance, as ever an invaluable mine of information!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
russbost
|
| posted on 21/12/17 at 01:11 PM |
|
|
Many thanks for everyone's assistance, as ever an invaluable mine of information!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
