Paul TigerB6
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 12:29 PM |
|
|
Seems to me that F1 has decended more and more into being all about money and politics rather than having anything to do with racing.
Who hosts Grand Prix these days depends on what brings in the most revenue - not which circuit will provide the best racing and have genuine
overtaking potential.
Frankly - i'm sick of F1 and wouldnt really care if Bernie's F1 concern went bust. Pinacle of motor-racing??? Pinacle of 220mph
advertising more like.
|
|
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 12:32 PM |
|
|
LOL Toyota have a history of that sort of dealing and yet they race on regardless.
The whole lot stinks, and I have absolutely no interest in it all whatsoever.
My solution is:
GET RALLYCROSS BACK ON MAINSTREAM TELLY!!!
I would bet my last pound it can pull in more audience than F1, and bring it back to the working class level that makes it all fun instead of a big
business with no regard for the people that matter........the ones who compete, and the ones who pay to watch.
Lets not forget, nobody gives a damn who is in charge, it could be the chuckle brothers for all the drivers and spectators care, and its them that
matter. The drivers cos they want to do it and the spectators cos ultimately they pay for it (via sponsors through media coverage obviously)
[Edited on 26/9/07 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 01:43 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
GET RALLYCROSS BACK ON MAINSTREAM TELLY!!!
Absolutely, far more exciting than a procession of F1 cars.
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 02:20 PM |
|
|
Get autocross on the telly, and ice racing. Trouble is as soon as it gets popular the budgets soar and 'normal' people don't get to
play any more. Then Sky will buy it and mean I won't be able to watch 
I remember rallycross being on ITV (I think) when I was a kid - lots of years ago 
[Edited on 26/9/07 by iank]
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 04:06 PM |
|
|
GET RALLYCROSS BACK ON MAINSTREAM TELLY!!!
NOW YOUR TALKING.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
Russ-Turner
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 08:35 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Palin
Is it worth noting that the FIA didn't feel the need to do anything to Toyota when 2 of its employees were convicted by a civil court of
stealing CAD data on CD from Ferrari?
I want the FIA to punish cheating very harshly, but they should also do it consistently.
As far as I see it, if you are monitoring a rival team either in real time or after the event, that is acceptable in as much that goes on all the
time. Teams do not break into each others garages, they simply look at what goes on, All the teams do it and of course take sound recording from the
trackside, pictures of each other cars and probably alot more too.
Radio broadasts are a similar thing, they are effectively open broadcasts on a public wave length. There are even websites that publish the
frequencies and stuff for the teams radios.
Where McLaren differed in this case was that they actively sought private information and in some cases got it before the events.
As far as people taking data from one team to another, alas that also goes on, as long as the employee is not recruited specifically for that data.
Otherwise people do take some info with them from job job, it happens in every industry. The ex-ferari Toyota staff took some code and aplications,
this wasnt the full design detail sof the ferrari just a few tools to get there new jobs going, they could no doubt easily have recreated a similar
application. Their actions were of course wrong, but not as serious as some suggest.
|
|
|
andyps
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 10:06 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
A lot of people seem to be jumping on a bandwagon here and confusing Max Mosely with his father. Without Bernie and Mosely F1 might have folded years
ago. Some people need to look at the history of the sport a little closer before they open their mouths. Stewart is a bit of a clown, and after the
mess he left Silverstone and the B.R.D.C. in nearly losing us the British G.P. if I was him I'd retire in peace and keep my opinions to myself
as I personally have no interest whatsoever in whichever former champs the media keep digging up to ask for quotes.
The first thing to say is I am completely convinced McLaren made use of the data they had received. This data was not the Stepney 780 page dossier,
but detailed sheets of Ferrari set up data and strategy information, sent to the team before the races. It was seen at the highest technical level
within McLaren and by two drivers. Two of these three people (plus CoughlanStepney) were not at the WMSC meeting to explain their actions.
This is different to copying or closely observing other teams. Having the facts before the event is completely unsporting. This is not usual form of
spying that happens after the fact, where teams monitor and photograph each other, that is part of the game, everyone does it. McLaren should have
told Ferrari some one was plying them with information, not gone and stuck it through their computers to see where is got them and planned race
strategies around it. Then claimed they never saw anything, it was all kept in Coughlans back room.
Please would you point out where in the transcripts of the hearing it was pointed out that "This data was not the Stepney 780 page dossier, but
detailed sheets of Ferrari set up data and strategy information, sent to the team before the races. It was seen at the highest technical level within
McLaren and by two drivers." I have not seen this, and it has not been mentioned in the press reports or elsewhere. Maybe you have read a
diiferent copy?
quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
Read the following fact closely:
McLaren had Ferrari set up sheets and race strategy information before at least two of the opening races. Senior personnel within McLaren circulated
this data and stated it was used in their simulations ahead of these races. Also within this communication the source of the data was confirmed as
Coughlan and Stepney.
Clearly McLaren had Ferrari data and senior personnel have used it. This would have advantaged McLaren as they had not raced bridgestones tyres before
and due to the tracks involved had not tested there either. This would have been critical information for the team to make use of at that stage of the
season.
Facts? They are about as factual as the pig which I just saw fly past my window. Please justify and prove.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
In My view the penalty is a farce, McLaren have lost their constructors point which is fair and big fine is good for TV, but the drivers were
advantaged at these races and thus their points should have been stripped for at least those races. Additionally those involved in the sharing and
subsequent dissemination of the data should be banned from FIA sanctioned sport.
I agree, this whole saga has been carried in the usual inept FIA way. This was not a court case, but a hearing of presentations made by the two
parties to the governing body. Clearly we should have had the full legal hearing. The issues have not been helped by McLarens obstinate refusal to
come clean (still to this day) and complicated by Ferrari and Italy’s pressing of the matter. This should all have been solved at the first hearing,
but for whatever reason wasn’t done so. I still feel without the facts being made public, this saga will not go away and people will have a coloured
view of what has actually happened in the hearing.
I think the fact that McLaren asked the FIA to visit its factory to inspect anything and everything, but the FIA didn't bother might indicate
who was telling the truth and who wasn't in this.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rob Palin
Is it worth noting that the FIA didn't feel the need to do anything to Toyota when 2 of its employees were convicted by a civil court of
stealing CAD data on CD from Ferrari?
I want the FIA to punish cheating very harshly, but they should also do it consistently.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as I see it, if you are monitoring a rival team either in real time or after the event, that is acceptable in as much that goes on all the
time. Teams do not break into each others garages, they simply look at what goes on, All the teams do it and of course take sound recording from the
trackside, pictures of each other cars and probably alot more too.
Radio broadasts are a similar thing, they are effectively open broadcasts on a public wave length. There are even websites that publish the
frequencies and stuff for the teams radios.
Where McLaren differed in this case was that they actively sought private information and in some cases got it before the events.
As far as people taking data from one team to another, alas that also goes on, as long as the employee is not recruited specifically for that data.
Otherwise people do take some info with them from job job, it happens in every industry. The ex-ferari Toyota staff took some code and aplications,
this wasnt the full design detail sof the ferrari just a few tools to get there new jobs going, they could no doubt easily have recreated a similar
application. Their actions were of course wrong, but not as serious as some suggest.
So if your employees set out to, and do, steal confidential information from a competitor which is then used to copy from that competitor that is OK,
but if one of your employees is handed information from a competitor without request it is not acceptable? I am not sure what your personal ethics
are, but I cannot see how you can possibly think this is correct.
The actual facts here are that 2 Toyota employees stole data about the Ferrari wind tunnel from Ferrari, data which was used to build the wind tunnel
which Toyota have - this has been proven in a court of law, and the two people concerned are currently in prison. On the other side, one employee of
McLaren was handed data by a disgruntled Ferrari employee, this data had very limited exposure within McLaren, and those in senior positions who heard
about the existence of it told the person to get rid of it and did what they could to stop any electronic transmissions from the Ferrari source.
Anything else was not proven, but McLaren had to prove they didn't do it, which they tried to do by inviting the FIA as mentioned above. In
addition, they had a full forensic investigation of their computer system and all it turned up was that someone had viewed a CD rom via the system,
but there is nothing (as far as i know) to say this was a CD Rom with Ferrari information - it might even have been a freebie from a newspaper. Add in
the fact that there are definite concerns about the legality of how Ferrari obtained the data about phone calls and SMS messages between Coughlan and
Stepney and in a proper court McLaren would probably be awarded costs and Ferrari punished.
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
|
|
|
andyps
|
| posted on 26/9/07 at 10:09 PM |
|
|
And in terms of the original subject of the thread, I think JYS should sue Mosley for libel, and then add bringing the sport into disrepute. Trouble
is, it is only the FIA who have that power, and despite the apparent madness of President Mosley I can't imagine him doing that to himself.
[Edited on 27/9/07 by andyps]
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 27/9/07 at 07:28 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Russ-Turner
[. Teams do not break into each others garages, they simply look at what goes on,
They do ISTR one team sent somebody into break into the Williams garage.
Which team was it ? -- no NOT Mclaren or any of the so called "english" teams.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 27/9/07 at 07:33 AM |
|
|
Quote from www.timesonline.co.uk
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2042025.ece
"Williams was a popular target in those days. Before his death in 1999, Dr Harvey Postlethwaite, Ferrari’s technical director, confessed to
friends that he had led a break-in at the Williams team garage at Hockenheim in the summer of 1980. At the time, Ferrari were running the
uncompetitive 312-T5 and Postlethwaite wanted to know more about the hugely successful FW07, so his engineers spent the whole night in the Williams
garage." end quote
-------------------------------------
It is worth noting that Postlethwaite moved in similar social orbits to Moseley
[Edited on 27/9/07 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
