davie h
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 10:43 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
The whole point re Cayennes etc is that its people putting their safety above other people.
i put my families safety and most of all my pregnant wife and son first before anyone else(maybe selfish but i love them more than words can desribe
and i dont know what i would do if anything happend to them) if i could afford a big 4X4 i would put them in it and pray for their safety because
there are 44ton trucks on the road and one of them could easily flatten any 4X4 so are the drivers of these putting their safety above that of others
or should these be banned aswell for theis size
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 10:46 AM |
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shouldnt need to be any bans - this country has far too many unnecessary bans, rules and regulations already to make up for the fact that too many
people dont have any common sense.
What i object to is these people that have large 4x4's just so they can bully their way around town on the school / shopping run with no
consideration for others. Seems to be the way this country is going - with the "i'm alright" attitude, especially when it comes to
the supposed "safety" of these cars.
Friend of mine owns a farm / riding school and has several 4x4's in his family. They are a necessity not a luxury so i'm sure everyone
here is smart enough to agree they are needed by certain people
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02GF74
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 10:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
The whole point re Cayennes etc is that its people putting their safety above other people. If a Porsche Cayenne (or other 4*4) crashes into you,
you're much more likely to end up with significant injuries.
Exactly. Should I ever have a crash, I would much prefer the other occupants to die or be seriously injured rather than me or my family.
Sorry if that offends or is selfish but that is the way I am and I don't think that is an unreasonable attitude. Otherwise I'd drive a
car made from papier mache with a surgeon in the passenger seat ready to remove my organs.
Personally, I think they're big, fat and uneccesary and should be banned.... unless they're actually used off-road!!!
You are entitled to your opinion, wrong as it is, some of them are quite nice, but that is no basis for banning them. I could say the
same about sevens: they are small, ugly, impractical, noisy and unneceassry.  but unlike you, I would not ban them. I believe people should be
allowed to buy what they want.
are we on page 6 yet?
[Edited on 9/10/07 by 02GF74]
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 10:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
What i object to is these people that have large 4x4's just so they can bully their way around town on the school / shopping run with no
consideration for others. Seems to be the way this country is going - with the "i'm alright" attitude, especially when it comes to
the supposed "safety" of these cars.
Friend of mine owns a farm / riding school and has several 4x4's in his family. They are a necessity not a luxury so i'm sure everyone
here is smart enough to agree they are needed by certain people
The problem is there is alot of prejudice that if you own an off roader your a bully who pushes other people about. Not that they have one cus they
need one
And like I said we can only afford one car atm, so does that mean my mum can't take our only car which is an off roader shopping?
[Edited on 9/10/2007 by I love speed :-P]
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
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Hellfire
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 10:59 AM |
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02GF74 - whilst you profuse about size/weight etc etc being an advantage... this summounts to ignorance. You obviously didn't watch a certain
program within the last few weeks whereby they ran; in real world conditions, a 1990 740 Estate Volvo (Big and heavy) into a 2006 Renault Megane
(proportionally smaller and lighter)... head on at 40mph, the Megane had NO (read that again NO) passenger or driver intrusion from impact
damage. The driver of the Volvo would have been sliced in half by the dashboard and protruding iron work which kind of negates your who argument.
Regarding your analogy with the Fiat and the Cayenne... I was in a simlar accident a few years ago - my Skoda was crossing a crossroads when a guy in
a Amazon went through on Red. I caught him between his front and rear wheels (side impact) he left the ground, travelled 29 feet in mid-air, chopped
off a Traffic Light with his roof (he was upside down) then came to an eventual rest still upside down on a railing. Fortunately he was ok - BUT if he
had have been in a car of equivalent HEIGHT this would simply have been a straight forward collision.
There was a survey recently however that pointed to the JEEP as being the most Green Vehicle on the planet - WHY? because the emissions they put out
(over it's lifetime) do not add up to the emissions created constantly designing new and updated models and putting them into production. I
think this is a US Army thing though...
Regarding emissions, the Chelsea Tractors are spewing out lots of emissions (yes same as top end sports cars) but because they are physically larger
they require more materials and consequently use more fluids and tyres and exhausts and and and... this is where my personal gripe about 4x4's
originates...
Steve
[Edited on 9-10-07 by Hellfire]
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Regarding emissions, the Chelsea Tractors are spewing out lots of emissions (yes same as top end sports cars) but because they are physically larger
they require more materials and consequently use more fluids and tyres and exhausts and and and... this is where my personal gripe about 4x4's
originates...
Steve
How many MPG's do you get with your 7? How many miles do your tyres last in your 7? Ok I admit the engine take 2 gallons of oil which will be
more than a 7, but how many miles do you change the oil in your 7? And how does an off roader uses more exhausts?
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
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Hellfire
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by davie h
i put my families safety and most of all my pregnant wife and son first before anyone else(maybe selfish but i love them more than words can desribe
and i dont know what i would do if anything happend to them) if i could afford a big 4X4 i would put them in it and pray for their safety because
there are 44ton trucks on the road and one of them could easily flatten any 4X4 so are the drivers of these putting their safety above that of others
or should these be banned aswell for theis size
So based on your declaration - you would not be driving a 4x4 - unstable (compared to a real car), less feedback from steering (large sectional tyres)
MUCH slower to bring to a standstill (momentum) than an equivalent car, and when your children are playing around a 4x4 you cant see them in the rear
view mirror etc you would squash them... sounds very safe to me.
Regarding the instability and braking issues compared to being safer in a crash - you brake and out manouver much more (I would hope anyway) than you
crash. But all three combined makes non-sense.
Steve
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Hellfire
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by I love speed :-P
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Regarding emissions, the Chelsea Tractors are spewing out lots of emissions (yes same as top end sports cars) but because they are physically larger
they require more materials and consequently use more fluids and tyres and exhausts and and and... this is where my personal gripe about 4x4's
originates...
Steve
How many MPG's do you get with your 7? How many miles do your tyres last in your 7? Ok I admit the engine take 2 gallons of oil which will be
more than a 7, but how many miles do you change the oil in your 7? And how does an off roader uses more exhausts?
Weekend car - irrelevant, but 25 mpg and lower CO2 emissions (bike engine)
Trackday and infrequent driving - rears 5000 miles last count - 2 years use.
Oil - changed three times in two years. (7 litres each time)
Offroader exhausts - uses more materials. Sevens are generally stainless are they not?
[Edited on 9-10-07 by Hellfire]
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
So based on your declaration - you would not be driving a 4x4 - unstable (compared to a real car), less feedback from steering (large sectional tyres)
MUCH slower to bring to a standstill (momentum) than an equivalent car, and when your children are playing around a 4x4 you cant see them in the rear
view mirror etc you would squash them... sounds very safe to me.
Regarding the instability and braking issues compared to being safer in a crash - you brake and out manouver much more (I would hope anyway) than you
crash. But all three combined makes non-sense.
Steve
Thats what gets me - the whole passive safety vs active safety issue. Closest i came to a serious crash was a combined 100mph near head on. That
accident never happened for me because i floored the throttle in a diesel rover 75 company car and drive away from the collision onto the grass, then
controlled the resulting mess from there. The Merc van behind me wasnt so lucky mind and was out cold when i got to him. The car that lost it coming
the other way was ............. a 4x4 that lost the back end
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davie h
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:18 AM |
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i dont drive a 4X4 i have a 04 plate Megane and the reason i bought it was because of its safety rating
i was trying to make the point that my family are the most important peope to me and even if a 4X4 was the safest car i couldnt afford it the same as
i couldnt afford a 57 plate megane and i still pray for their safety when they are out and about in the megane andd no i wouldnt buy one even if i
could for the driveabillity reasons that you state
[Edited on 9/10/07 by davie h]
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Weekend car - irrelevant, but 25 mpg and lower CO2 emissions (bike engine)
Trackday and infrequent driving - rears 5000 miles last count - 2 years use.
Offroader exhausts - uses more materials. Sevens are generally stainless are they not?
Why does it being a weekend car make it irrelevant? Emissions i havnt a clue about but 25 miles vs 40 odd? 5000 miles vs 15000? and the exhaust is 12
years old (original) and still going strong and by the time of a 4-1 or 4-2-1 total length would be about the same ish
The problem with all this is that it can go on for ever. But you cant knock off roaders with out knocking 7's. and knock every car that isnt
electric
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by I love speed :-P
The problem with all this is that it can go on for ever. But you cant knock off roaders with out knocking 7's. and knock every car that isnt
electric
Well unless the electric is produced in an enviromental manner then the electric car argument goes out of the window too. Nuclear car anyone?? 
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Hellfire
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:33 AM |
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Ok - but in reference to your ID - I Love Speed - do you really like speed in a 4x4? Do you love corners at speed too?
The rubber used to make your tyres would most likely make 2,3 or four of ours...
Se7ens are recycled generically - I rest my case.
Lets pay our RFL and see who the Government favours... 
And I wish to protect my family too - seeing
accidents instigated by 4x4's and seeing the results of them on thier sides and rooves... this is the very reason I wouldn't HAVE one.
Steve
[Edited on 9-10-07 by Hellfire]
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:47 AM |
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I do love speed as most people on here do, but on the roads in any car I feel its is silly with the amount of traffic and idiots on the roads around
here so no matter what car i'm in the speed doesn't really change lets say 1 off road tyre makes 3 7 tyres 5000 x 3 = 15000 And I need
an off roader so there isnt much I can do about it, but I don't like to be called a bully and worse things because of the type of car I need.
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
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NS Dev
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 11:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
There is an orchestrated force out there brainwashing the public to tow the line and I find this quite worrying and totally appalling. For
example,some years ago, I cannot remember when exactly, I heard or read that we as a motoring public would be weaned off sportscars and encouraged to
buy 4wd vehicles. What rubbish, I thought at the time, who in their right mind would trade their Aston for a Jeep but it really has happened. Speed
has become anti social and the perpetrators of it are regarded on the same level as petty criminals by the general public. Overtaking is a lost art
and everybody is now prepared to be part of a snake winding its way through Southeast England causing frustration and annoyance to all. No money has
been allocated to driver training and everybody for the sake of road safety is reduced to the lowest common denominator. Every other vehicle you see
on the road is a Chelsea Tractor and most, I would venture to say never go near off road. I was interested to read the thread started by David
Jenkins where somebody mentions lowered Range Rovers running on low profile tyres. These people who drive them must have a real personality crisis.
What they really want is a 911 but cannot get the family in. Well the've(whoever they are),have shot themselves in the foot alright now that
fuel efficiency is the buzzword and everyone is talking green and NCAP 5 Stars. Where does that put the average 4x4. And what are Porsche thinking
about with the Cayenne. What on earth is that all about?
What a breath of fresh air is Top Gear. Those lads are examples to us all. They really enjoy themselves in proper sports cars without pretence at
political correctness. Life is very short and I believe we should be out there enjoying it. We only get one shot at it so let's make every
minute count.
I fully expect to be flamed for this but that is what I really think. I'm now bracing myself for the flak!!!
John
ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH EVERY WORD!!!!
no more to say, totally agree.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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02GF74
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 12:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
02GF74 - whilst you profuse about size/weight etc etc being an advantage... this summounts to ignorance. You obviously didn't watch a certain
program within the last few weeks whereby they ran; in real world conditions, a 1990 740 Estate Volvo (Big and heavy)into a 2006 Renault
Megane (proportionally smaller and lighter)... ... work which kind of negates your who argument.
Regarding your analogy with the Fiat and the Cayenne... I was in a simlar accident a few years ago - my Skoda was crossing a crossroads when a guy in
a Amazon went through on Red. I caught him between his front and rear wheels (side impact) he left the ground, travelled 29 feet in mid-air, chopped
off a Traffic Light with his roof (he was upside down) then came to an eventual rest still upside down on a railing. Fortunately he was ok - BUT if he
had have been in a car of equivalent HEIGHT this would simply have been a straight forward collision.
If you trawl for information hard enough, you will always find an example or statistics that fits your argument.
Notice what I have highlighted above. You are comparing a volvo that is 16 years older than the meganne.
Car engineering does not stand still and your example demonstrates the progress made in car safety. It would be interesting to see how the meganne
fairs against a 2006 model volvo.
If you think my argument is flawed, then I welcome you, in your seven, light and small to take me head to head against my 1975 Series Land Rover.
Which is greener than your 7 as it is still the orignal chassis and body bar the engine.
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Coose
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 12:04 PM |
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The front tyres on my Datsun N-Trail lasted 31000 miles of company car abuse. It's still on the original rears after 37000! I have never been
overtalen by anything with more than 2 wheels down our local B-roads, so who says that they don't handle?
Anyway, how's about a ban on bans?
Spin 'er off Well...
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 12:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Coose
Anyway, how's about a ban on bans?
Can we have one on politicians too???
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Coose
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 12:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
quote:
Originally posted by Coose
Anyway, how's about a ban on bans?
Can we have one on politicians too???
That sounds grand!
Spin 'er off Well...
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 12:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by I love speed :-P
And I need an off roader so there isnt much I can do about it, but I don't like to be called a bully and worse things because of the type of car
I need.
Think i am the only person who mentioned some 4x4 drivers being bullies when i wrote:-
"What i object to is these people that have large 4x4's just so they can bully their way around town on the school / shopping run with no
consideration for others. Seems to be the way this country is going - with the "i'm alright" attitude, especially when it comes to
the supposed "safety" of these cars."
This was in no way a generallisation of all 4x4 drivers, but is the way certain people drive - your stereotypical mother on the school run who is
forever late and uses her big car to barge her way through town.
I'm well aware there are many considerate 4x4 drivers. Plenty have given me a flick of the left indicator to help me through when overtaking in
my Tiger, and in return i dont floor my loud se7en past their horse box.
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brynhamlet
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 01:27 PM |
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Top and bottom of it everybody will drive what they want, but thinking your safer in a chelsea tractor is rubbish. If you car has a NCAP rating of 5
as does the later Meganes your as safe as your going to be in any car.
Just for interest the little Clio carries a 5 star rating
the big 4 x 4's don't carry that rating
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Hellfire
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 01:56 PM |
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O2 - correct - it wasn't a like for like basis... but for the record, even the experts that set-up the crash indicated that the Volvo would most
likely sustain less damage.
Regarding your theoretical tussling re: your original L.R. and our Se7en. How about a game of Cat and Mouse as on TV....
1. You have to catch us - yes that includes speed...
2. You have to catch us - yes that includes corners...
3. If your's survives those two major obstacles and still moves, we could then put the front of our car between your fr and rr wheels and
basically tip you out of the ring.
4. If your's is a Diesel, you would have an unfair advantage as that Perkins engine will kick out so much soot and particulates we
wouldn't be able to find you...
Steve
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02GF74
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 02:50 PM |
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no probs; tell me where you are going and I'll catch you. I have twin 10 gallon fuel tanks as well as 2 5 gallon jerry cans in the back plus
can take a short cuts cross country.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 07:38 PM |
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Simon
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| posted on 9/10/07 at 07:48 PM |
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Well, I can solve the problem. Some people don't like 4x4 because some arrogant twat has upset them. Most old grannies don't like bikes,
as they too noisy. I don't like buses, taxis, lorries etc as they clog up the roads. Some think drivers of Porsches. Ferrarris and Lambo have
something to prove (I probably agree). Basically everyone has something to whine about. Blimey, there's pobably someone out there who thinks
no-one should be allowed to build their car from a set of plans!
Back to the horse and cart then.
Unless the poo upsets you!
Simon
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