Mr Whippy
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:36 PM |
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killing demented cars
I was just reading about an Arial Atom that went wild and the driver being forced to drive it into a wall at great speed to stop it, apparently the
throttle opening by its self. I’ve always been wary about the concept of flyby wire throttles and certainly have heard of plenty of cases that cars
have taken off on their own, the drivers fighting, usually in vain to bring them to a stop. I’ve even driven (quite happily as it happens) with jammed
open throttles down the dual carriageway in the past due to carb icing so its not just all singing modern engines that can go wrong.
I wonder how many builders here have an engine cut button on the dash (say cuts the coil supply) for such occasions, my buggy has a simple switch for
the ignition and I think I’ll be doing the same for the Bluebird when I fit the cruise control incase it goes mad…
oh and if you haven't seen it -
[Edited on 18/12/08 by Mr Whippy]
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cd.thomson
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:40 PM |
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I have an emergency way to stop my cars in all situations.
In the case of the throttle sticking open I'd use my "emergency" gear stick to put the car into "emergency" neutral.
Then hit the "emergency foot brake" to slow the car down. No need for a wall, although the engine may rev itself to death it wont kill me
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tomgregory2000
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:44 PM |
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i put in neutral and use that thing called a "KEY" to turn it off
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Stott
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:44 PM |
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I have one that cuts fuel, coils, DBW throttle and all that jazz, operated by a key, in the ignition barrel, quite effective
RE the atom, Surely you'd just switch it off, dip the clutch, pull it into neutral, anything apart from bin it.
PS don't think an atom is DBW but cabled as in the EP3 civic type r
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:45 PM |
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well apparently he tried this too, and it didn't work
I actually remember a BMW owner who this happened to and who did a summersalt over a roundabout, when asked why he hadn't just switch the engine
off he replied he wasn't sure if the steering lock would come on
[Edited on 18/12/08 by Mr Whippy]
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:46 PM |
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If you are driving along the road and use such an ignition switch isnt it possible for the engine to continue running?
Knocking out of gear sounds feasible but i guess its all in the timing, i dont think the chap in the atom had an awful lot of it iirc.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:46 PM |
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I have a cut-off switch
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coozer
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:47 PM |
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Thats right, throttle sticks wide open so you have the clutch to stop the car moving, the brake to push when you've applied the clutch, the
gearstick to put into nuetral or first then of course the key to turn the engine off.
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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02GF74
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:51 PM |
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hmmmm, there have been stories about electronickery going haywire; most have been excuses for BMW drivers to check out their top speed on the M1.
what are the odds he was doing the same, crashed and is seeking to blame the manufacturer?
does it not have a clutch or brakes fitted?
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 02:56 PM |
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out of curiosity
does the steering lock come on when the igntion is turned off? On say a ford, I don't remember turning it two clicks
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DavidM
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:06 PM |
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The steering lock doesn't usually come on until you take the key out.
David
Proportion is Everything
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cd.thomson
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidM
The steering lock doesn't usually come on until you take the key out.
David
In my 04 fiesta i have 1st click for steering lock and ancillaries, 2nd click starts everything else and 3rd movement turns the engine over. Therefore
taking the key back 1 click while the engine is running will cut the engine but will not affect the steering lock (or radio, if you're listening
to something particularly inspiring while trying to prevent a nasty car accident).
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hughpinder
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:19 PM |
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Don't forget that if you turn the engine off you immediately loose the power assistance on your steering, and probably the vacuum that helps
your brake servo too, so be careful - its not just the steering lock you have to think about! Just dip the clutch and use the brakes!
A friend of mine who was a mechanic for mercedes took a S500 for a 'test' after he'd fixed it , and the throttle stuck fully open at
about 90 - He turned the ignition off. Lets just says that you have to be careful to just turn the key to OFF and not the position where the steering
lock is on. He still recons he was incredibly lucky not to crash between steering lock on and back to off.
Hugh
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vinny1275
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:22 PM |
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Likewise to most of the replies above. Unless he convinced Ariel to build him an Auto, he should have been able to stop it by using the clutch. maybe
he just panicked - an odd reaction to deliberately drive into a wall though. More likely he binned it then thought up the excuse after.
Mine's going to have a cut-out, and it has an electric fuel pump as well - turning the ignition key off should cut the coil and the pump, so
you've got no sparks or fuel to keep the engine running.....
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BenB
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:29 PM |
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Are there some cars out there where the engine doesn't stop when you switch off the ignition???? I'm confused!!!
Clutch down, bang it into neutral, switch off engine, use middle pedal to stop.
Or is that too complicated?
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by hughpinder
Don't forget that if you turn the engine off you immediately loose the power assistance on your steering, and probably the vacuum that helps
your brake servo too, so be careful - its not just the steering lock you have to think about! Just dip the clutch and use the brakes!
You don't immediately lose servo assistance for the brakes, it takes several presses of the pedal to lose all the stored vacuum in the servo.
Also if you are travelling at reasonable speed, loss of power steering isn't such a big problem (though it certainly gets noticeably heavier),
if it fails when you are only doing a few mph it can take a herculean effort to turn the wheel on a heavy modern car.
I've yet to drive a car were the steering lock engages before you take the key out however.
[Edited on 18/12/08 by MikeRJ]
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r1_pete
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by hughpinder
A friend of mine who was a mechanic for mercedes took a S500 for a 'test' after he'd fixed it , and the throttle stuck fully open at
about 90 - He turned the ignition off. Lets just says that you have to be careful to just turn the key to OFF and not the position where the steering
lock is on. He still recons he was incredibly lucky not to crash between steering lock on and back to off.
Hugh
My wife's old SL500 did just that after being serviced and valeted, the moron who valeted it steam cleaned the engine bay and washed all the
lube out of the throttle linkages.... Thats a pretty powerful 5.0L V8 and auto going mad, luckily she got it into neutral rather than park!!
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YQUSTA
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:36 PM |
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on my mk if the ignition is fully off it locks the steering but you could allways turn it back on without starting the engine that would work.
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omega0684
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:38 PM |
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if he tried all of the ways to stop the car, brakes, neutral and the key etc and NONE of that worked, then i have only one comment,
WHAT A SHODDY BUILD!
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 03:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Are there some cars out there where the engine doesn't stop when you switch off the ignition???? I'm confused!!!
Clutch down, bang it into neutral, switch off engine, use middle pedal to stop.
Or is that too complicated?
Yeah seems simple enough yet there's been plenty who have crashed from this. The guy in the Arial got this legs pulverised and his passenger
broke one. He seems to have had time to build up speed and then decide to hit the wall rather than take a T-junction. Not sure why he could not have
just disengaged the clutch
All quite strange
[Edited on 18/12/08 by Mr Whippy]
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 04:10 PM |
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Ah that BMW driver you're talking about Whippy must've been the one on the news. He tried to blame a manufacturing fault. In the end it
was proven to be lying not sure what his punishment was though.
There is a tale behind that Atom I think. The fella who did it was on the Atom owners club, the one where they don't like Nitram and gave the
tale. Of course all the others agreed with him that it most certainly wasn't anything to do with the build quality and that the chassis was
therefore and forever proven effective
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iank
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 04:16 PM |
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Same conclusions last time it was discussed
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=91229
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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nitram38
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 04:48 PM |
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That is why I don't build cars with combined steering lock/ignition.
On the MotaLeira, I have used an FIA switch which will cut the battery, but instead of a resistor for the alternator on the other terminals, I will
connect them to the Bike loom engine cut.
That way, turning it off will kill the engine too and no steering lock dramas.
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zilspeed
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 05:02 PM |
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I don't ever remember encountering any car where turning the ignition off but leaving the key in will lock the steering.
In addition, if a modern car is put in neutral with the throttle stuck wide open, the engine will not rev its brains out either.
On full throttle, they stutter off a false rev limiter at around 5,500 rpm. You actually get more revs in netutral using part throttle.
I think our man made a James Hunt of it, to use Glaswegian rhyming slang.
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BenB
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| posted on 18/12/08 at 05:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Are there some cars out there where the engine doesn't stop when you switch off the ignition???? I'm confused!!!
Clutch down, bang it into neutral, switch off engine, use middle pedal to stop.
Or is that too complicated?
Yeah seems simple enough yet there's been plenty who have crashed from this. The guy in the Arial got this legs pulverised and his passenger
broke one. He seems to have had time to build up speed and then decide to hit the wall rather than take a T-junction. Not sure why he could not have
just disengaged the clutch
All quite strange
I saw the discussion last time. Sounds like a load of BS to me.... Even if a throttle jams you're still in control. I reckon he just spanked it
into a wall....
It isn't a throttle jamming that gives me the nightmares at night it's the steering failing......
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