carpmart
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 05:44 AM |
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Snow, RWD car and ABS, I'm staying at home today!
I got up for an early start but don't fancy driving 50 miles across Beds and Bucks with ABS and this much snow! Why can't we switch off
abs in cars? Its bloody dangerous in this weather!
RWD is fun to a point but it just makes for a potentially fraught journey, especially if you get stuck half way up a hill as my 245 40 R18 don't
lend themselves to being good snow tyres 
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack 
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 07:10 AM |
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why is ABS dangerous? beats thumping away at the brake pedal any day
sounds like you just need some more practice in the snow and RWD’s are ace for climbing hills when its slippy
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rf900rush
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 07:27 AM |
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Got a Subaru Outback 4x4 bus an a Ford Cmax
Guess what one the wife and kids want?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 07:51 AM |
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what???
What is the country coming to!
Its not like the snow is deep!!
RWD BMW 5 series on 235 low profile tyres and made it to work with only a few sideways moments.
If you are worried about driving in these conditions then you should get some training before driving a powerful locost!!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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blakep82
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 08:09 AM |
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eh? abs dangerous?
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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smart51
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 08:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
Why can't we switch off abs in cars? Its bloody dangerous in this weather!
You clearly don't understand ABS. Light snow and small patches of ice is IDEAL weather for ABS. ABS is better than you will ever be except in
deep snow or very wet sand, where it is merely useful.
I wouldn't go out in this weather without ABS.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 08:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
why is ABS dangerous? beats thumping away at the brake pedal any day
sounds like you just need some more practice in the snow and RWD’s are ace for climbing hills when its slippy
I suspect you haven't been driving long, If you try tapping or pulsing the brake on black ice ------ you will discover a great way to spin
like a top. Only way to brake when it is really icy is really really gently.
Because of the very mild winters of the last decade and more a whole generation of drivers has grown up that has never driven in a real winter.
[Edited on 5/1/09 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 08:21 AM |
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RWD is no problem give RWD any time over FWD --- ABS isn't exactly brillant at very slow speed or really slippery conditions, but you can still
brake gently as you would without ABS. However when you get black ice you ideally want no ABS no brake servo and no PAS.
The other problem is most cars these days have tyres that are much too wide for snow, ice or torrential rain.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 08:21 AM |
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Agreed Mr Trident!
ABS or not, you can't really brake at all when its really icy so it makes no odds.
Use gears to slow down gently, then kerb or gutter or edge of verge to stop, only way on downhill when its too icy for the brakes to do anything.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 08:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
why is ABS dangerous? beats thumping away at the brake pedal any day
sounds like you just need some more practice in the snow and RWD’s are ace for climbing hills when its slippy
I suspect you haven't been driving long, If you try tapping or pulsing the brake on black ice ------ you will discover a great way to spin
like a top. Only way to brake when it is really icy is really really gently.
Because of the very mild winters of the last decade and more a whole generation of drivers has grown up that has never driven in a real winter.
[Edited on 5/1/09 by britishtrident]
hee hee na haven't been driving long at all....class 
anyway when I was a bus driver they disabled the ABS on all the busses, even the new ones so the only way to not skid is to pump the pedal, driven
bendy busses on black ice too, makes a car seem a total doddle 
[Edited on 5/1/09 by Mr Whippy]
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minitici
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:14 AM |
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For old gits like me, brought up on ancient non-abs cars, ABS feels very strange when it cuts in.
First reaction is to take your foot off the brake as you thing the pedal has siezed 
As a previous poster has said, on black ice, nothing is going to stop you short of aiming for a kerb.
Luckily my ABS is broken so my brakes feel normal and I feel that I have at least some control of my destiny 
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:31 AM |
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Hmm can’t say I’m all that convinced with ABS either tbh as its effectiveness seems to vary quite a lot, my SAAB took a scary amount of time to stop
in the wet and I’m sure I could have brought it to a halt a lot faster than the ABS could but as it just kicks in the instant the wheels lock then you
lose the chance to control anything or get any feeling for the road, my Volvo’s ABS was much better, the Vectra even better still but given the option
I’d not have it fitted. Never used traction control but I’d just switch it off anyway, far to boring…
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smart51
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:35 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
ABS or not, you can't really brake at all when its really icy so it makes no odds.
Only if the entire road is completly covered in wet ice. Even then, the ABS will find the maximum brake force that can be applied and apply it.
On roads with patchy grip, the ABS will release the brake only on the wheel which is on ice. The other wheels with grip will continue to brake. When
grip is restored to the slipping wheel, so will the braking effort. You just can't do that manually.
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smart51
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by minitici
my ABS is broken so ... I feel that I have at least some control of my destiny
That is exactly right. You feel that you are in control. In fact you are not, but you feel all nice. A well set up ABS system can control the
brakes far more accurately and precisely than even an expert driver. Can you control the brakes of each wheel separately? Can you tell exactly how
much each wheel is slipping?
There was a survey recently about driving. The question was “Do you think that your driving is better than average, about average or below average?”
80% of people rated themselves above average. The same applies to ABS. People think they are better.
[Edited on 5-1-2009 by smart51]
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owelly
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:46 AM |
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During the last bit of snow I proved that the hill desent control on my Range Rover is useless on ice! I stopped at the top of a hill, pressed the HDC
button and took my feet off the pedals. I then wrestled the steering wheel as the car slowly started to spin and slide right to the bottom of the
hill! I was glad to land in the ditch at the bottom! Throughout the slide, all four wheels were clicking away trying to stop them from spinning but as
folks have said, if there is no grip, you've got no chance!
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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mr henderson
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:48 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
ABS or not, you can't really brake at all when its really icy so it makes no odds.
Only if the entire road is completly covered in wet ice. Even then, the ABS will find the maximum brake force that can be applied and apply it.
On roads with patchy grip, the ABS will release the brake only on the wheel which is on ice. The other wheels with grip will continue to brake. When
grip is restored to the slipping wheel, so will the braking effort. You just can't do that manually.
Indeed.
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carpmart
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:55 AM |
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Interesting replies to this thread!
RWD - So, my experience and the reason for posting in the first place is that with big fat tyres which are legal but well worn, in a RWD car trying to
hill start is pretty difficult! I live on the edge of the Chilterns, my route is back roads some of which are un treated. Its pretty slippy! This is
my experience!
ABS - I find this pretty good in most situations except for snow with ice. My experience a couple of times with frozen road (snow on top) and with
ABS is that snow builds in front of the front tyres and causes a snow plow type effect. There is no traction underneath the snow and a wedge building
in front of the tyre. (this is exagerated further with fat tyres) If your going down hill at same time then its pretty lethal.
Finally, I have a little driving experience as I'm not the youngest forum member Put it this way, I was clearing my daughters car of snow
this morning and she has been driving for a couple of years so at my age I have some practice in real weather! For my sins, I used to be a sales rep
and covered 60k miles per year in the 80's early 90's. I drove RWD Sierra's and got a new one every 12 -14 months, so I have some
practice in driving in all conditions. I also race a fireblade engined car with no differential so I'm pretty used to controlling RWD cars.
Anyway, as I said, there are some 'interesting' comments on the posts. All I will say is theory is one thing, how RWD and ABS works in
the real world can be quite different.
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 09:56 AM |
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just drive on the grass verge, it's much safer there and no slippy ice
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 10:00 AM |
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I find my DTC and ABS excellent with patchy ice. Going back to rwd with a BMW tintop after years of FWD has been entertaining to say the least. All of
my grassers etc have been RWD but driving sideways in 5 min bursts is not the same as a 50 mile commute. It's not difficult but I do find that I
am far more alert to feelings and sensations when driving RWD and longer journeys in difficult conditions are a little more tiring as a result.
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carpmart
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 10:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
I find my DTC and ABS excellent with patchy ice. Going back to rwd with a BMW tintop after years of FWD has been entertaining to say the least. All of
my grassers etc have been RWD but driving sideways in 5 min bursts is not the same as a 50 mile commute. It's not difficult but I do find that I
am far more alert to feelings and sensations when driving RWD and longer journeys in difficult conditions are a little more tiring as a result.
Very eloquently put!
This is exactly my experience with a big 5 series RWD BMW and fat tyres!
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
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02GF74
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 10:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
my SAAB took a scary amount of time to stop in the wet and I’m sure I could have brought it to a halt a lot faster than the ABS could but as it just
kicks in the instant the wheels lock then you lose the chance to control anything or get any feeling for the road,
indeed; common misconception with ABS; it does not guarantee that stopping distance is shorter than with non-ABS brakes.
ABS = anti-lock braking system; purpose is to reduce the possibility of brake lock up and therefore provide a better chance of
steering out of trouble.
likewise those who buy 4x4 think they can stop in shorter distance - but again that is a misconception - they usually don't because of 4x4 being
generally heavier - and you just cannot argue with the laws of physics.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 11:07 AM |
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Worst I found was ABS on wet cobbles and the SAAB, it seemed that the system was getting confused with the pulsing amounts of grip and the time lag it
took for the system to work. Basically it could not keep up, I could feel the car slow down till the ABS kicked in then suddenly it would practically
turn the brakes off and I have to take my foot off the brake and try again, which was quite frightening really.
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Benzine
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 11:50 AM |
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I've been using the handbrake to go round corners this morning, awesome fun!
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Phil.J
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 11:54 AM |
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I have to agree with the original poster, ABS in snow can be very dangerous. I'm old enough to remember the ABS system being introduced by
manufacturers, and they admitted at the time that snow was the one condition in which a conventionally braked car would out-perform an ABS equipped
one.
It's not the slippery conditions, but drivers use the wedge of snow in front of the tyres to aid braking (ABS equipped cars ride over the wedge
of snow).
[Edited on 5/1/09 by Phil.J]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 5/1/09 at 12:24 PM |
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A skilled driver using a conventional conventional braking system will stop in a shorter distance than ABS in all conditions --- in most conditions
the distance just a couple of feet or so.
BUT the real advantage of ABS is that all but the biggest idiots (who are generally going much to fast for the conditions anyway) can panic stop and
steer at the same time.
Where ABS has a problem is at slow speeds, ABS sensors are toothed rings which requires the wheel to rotate through given angle to provide the ABS
computer with data, if you optimised the system for very low speeds it would require a greater number of finer teeth on the abs ring, this would
impair the function at high speed and make this system more prone to failure.
The danger of running with the ABS fuse out is that most vehicles with ABS depend on the ABS to control the front/rear brake balance. Fine except for
the fact many small FWD car are now grossly over brake on the rear. Put this together with the fact that most tin tops have grossly over servoed
brakes and you get a potential for disaster. Nothing spins faster than a small hatch with the rear brakes locked --- no fun at 70+ on a wet motorway.
I think any insurance company examining a vehicle after an accident finding that the ABS fuse had been deliberately removed would have considerable
justification for not paying out.
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