dhutch
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 01:53 PM |
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Getting a Consumer Unit Changed? Cost of? (Electrical advice on buying a older house)
Im in the process of buying a house, an 1940's ex local authority jobbie, and im wondering for the sake of negotion purposes what the going rate
is for changing a consumer unit.
Also running a cable from the consumer unit, round the outside wall (8-10m run) to a conservatory and putting in a ring small main, or alteast a pair
of double sockets.
Cheers,
Daniel
--
Full story.
Orignally it was on was on fuses having been re-wired back in the 70-80's and i mentioned to the vendor (A jobbing builder type, currently
living in the property) that I would be changing it at some point once i moved in to which he said 'Its all right I know a load of Electricans
and it will only be £50 for me to get it done' which I thought all in all was fair enough, wirings all driven by legal requirments and a job
like should be too hard to get right.
But the homebuyers report i had done (£190 worth of peice of mine, if nothing else) highlighted the elec supply as containg alterations of an amateur
nature (see direct quote below).
So i had a elec survay done and asked him to quote for anything needing doing to make it safe, which said that several of the breakers in the new box
where of the wrong value, 16amp for lighting circurts, 40amp for the (unused) cooker supply that should have been 32, etc. Also that the supply from
the meter was undersized (proberbly the origanal, and regs have changed?) and that the wiring to the conservatory ring main that was mentioned in the
home buyers was 1.5mm (heavy duty lighting spec) rather than 2.5mm as all ring mains should apprently be. And atleast one continuity issue with the
other ring mains. Although he apprently stopped the test after about an hour as it was going to fail and he didnt want to was his time and my money.
And has produced a quote for £1100 to put it right. Theres also a wire to the garage, which is an armoured type (clear wrap) run partially under
paving the house, but not connected, i mentioned this to the elec and told him not to include it in the survay.
So as im already pushed for cash and need the elec safe before i can take a lodger (only way im making the mortage make sense for the first few years)
I asked he we could knock the £1000 of the purchase price.
He's then said to the Estate agent He's already forked out £500 on the consumer unit, including have the bloke back to correct it, and
that the wire to the garage under the paving we had already talked about and that it wasnt connected and that he has already lowered his price and
that the elec bloke had only been there 10minutes anyway and hadnt looked under the paving.
Apprently he might be good to take some cost off but clearly doesnt want to move the full £1000 (house is 128,500 and present)
The vendors certainly a nice enough bloke, and to a certain extent working help sell the house, but equally is regularly somewhat economical with the
truth (he told the sparky that the box had been in 18 months, for instance) in an attemt to improve the image of the house and this isnt the only sign
that some the work that is his 'freinds in the trade' have done isnt the best.
Quote from homebuyers
'Alterations have been carried out which appear to be of an amateur nature. There is
limited evidence of earth cross bonding. Externally wiring does not appear to have
adequate protection [cables running down wall and under paving to conservator]).
The electrical installation should be inspected by a suitably
competent person (registered with the Electrical Contractors Association, ECA,
or the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting, NICEIC)
prior to exchange of contracts.
This is considered to be a health and safety risk and
should be treated as requiring urgent attention. Repair works could be costly and
estimates should be obtained before a commitment to purchase.'
Daniel
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 02:16 PM |
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I charge £250 for a bs7671 certificate and the going rate of 15 to 20 per hour for repairs to make safe ect
The cost of materials is extra. So a grand wouldnt be far off the mark.
Every part of the install would have to be physically checked as you never know what you will find.
I recently found a 2.5mm leaving a socket arriving in 1.5mm at the other end...
Found a whole kitchen hanging on a 2.5 ........yep lights as well
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jossey
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 02:25 PM |
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save some money and fit the wire under the floor if possible to the conservatory just leaving the wire in the right place for the sparky to wire
up.
I re wired my whole house replacing all the cables pretty much 1 by 1 and naming them at the socket end and at the new consumer location then the
sparky came to fit the unit (which i did all but the RCD's) and he charged £200 in labour so not bad but a pain in arse.
better than £1000 in labour.
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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ashg
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 02:39 PM |
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my bro did his whole house on his own then paid about £200 for a chap to come in and sign it off. its not difficult to do properly to be honest.
there are plenty of good books out there if your not afraid to get stuck in.
£1000 seems like a pretty typical price to sort that out.
to be honest something like that wouldn't stop me buying a house even the seller didn't budge on the price. especially after you have
spunked all that money on surveys. from my experience of home surveys they are all a load of crap, the only thing you really need to worry about is
that the structure of the house is sound, the rest can be sorted as you go.
at the end of the day if you want a perfect house buy a new one and keep calling the builders back until its how you want it.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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flak monkey
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 02:42 PM |
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If you want an electrical nightmare you ought to come and have a look at our place... 100+ years of addons and bodges..its a nightmare every time you
want to work something out.
Half of its radial (albeit on relatively modern T&E), some a questionable ring, and a shed load of spurs. Doesnt help the house is a rambling
thing, with various additions at different stages. Theres at least 7 fuse boxes, some with ceramic holders.
But its been like it for at least 40 years (since the last major work was carried out). Would be nice to have a consumer unit fitted and it all
sorted, but it will be a fortune as the whole house would need to be rewired.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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stevegough
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 03:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jossey
save some money and fit the wire under the floor if possible to the conservatory just leaving the wire in the right place for the sparky to wire
up.
I re wired my whole house replacing all the cables pretty much 1 by 1 and naming them at the socket end and at the new consumer location then the
sparky came to fit the unit (which i did all but the RCD's) and he charged £200 in labour so not bad but a pain in arse.
better than £1000 in labour.
Yes, agreed - there is a lot you could do yourself, and then get the electrician to finish it - but, with respect, the guy was asking for a ballpark
figure from a negotiation point of view. I would say that £1000 - £1500 would be a basis for negotiation, but if you like the house, don't let
it put you off - after all, a grand is chickenfeed compared to the value / price of a property!
And Dave (Flak monkey) - get your house wiring sorted out properly! You know you would regret it when it burns down and the insurers refuse to pay
out after the investigators discover dodgy wiring that you knew about?
Good luck with the negotiation and house purchase, Daniel.
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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twybrow
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 03:46 PM |
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I have just been through exactly the same fun... Our survey picked up the dodgy electrics, so we have opted to do a full rewire of the house. Trying
to be the good LCB type,my father in law and I have done the rewire (he is qualified to previous regs, but not current). For a 3 bed house (1937
build, with plenty of rubber coated wiring still in place!), it has cost £1200 alone in parts (they really add up). We planned to pay an independent
electrician to test, sign off and certify the work as suggested by the BCO, but I have been unable to find a sparky willing to do that (some say it is
illegal, others say not unless there is some installation work for them too). So in the end, we are having ours inspected by the Building Control
electrician, at a cost of £75 - bargain me thinks!
You will have to comply with current Building regs for thw work you are thinking of (including BCO sign off), so I would be wary that a quick
replacement of consumer until, amy turn into a much larger job. For the purposed of negotiation, I would look to take £2k off the asking proce to
cover the work, and certification of the work....
Good luck, and wish me luck for our inspection/sign off tomorrow!
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davestarck
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 04:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ashg
my bro did his whole house on his own then paid about £200 for a chap to come in and sign it off. its not difficult to do properly to be honest.
there are plenty of good books out there if your not afraid to get stuck in.
Any decent electrician will not sign off other peoples DIY attemps at wiring, I certainly will not. if it was so simple to do why did I spend years at
college, been in the trade for 30 years and I'm still learning. Any one can wire a house but not anyone can wire a house correctly 
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Krismc
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 04:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by davestarck
quote:
Originally posted by ashg
my bro did his whole house on his own then paid about £200 for a chap to come in and sign it off. its not difficult to do properly to be honest.
there are plenty of good books out there if your not afraid to get stuck in.
Any decent electrician will not sign off other peoples DIY attemps at wiring, I certainly will not. if it was so simple to do why did I spend years at
college, been in the trade for 30 years and I'm still learning. Any one can wire a house but not anyone can wire a house correctly
I agree i went to uni too and hate others trying too do my work, but law says competent people for most the installs bit and full elecy for testing
and DB. Id sign other peoples work off as long as i can see with the facias off and see the wiring both ends, why not? unless they look like a plonk
of try and hide things.
Any one can get 17th edition its so easy now. 
EDit to say, id £1000 - £2000 to change your consumer unit, run a ring main to conservatory, test all you house wiring, and isolate all the unsafe
bits.
From that report he now shouldnt be selling a house that is a now deemed a health and safety risk, at the least he should have the parts removed that
are unsafe or isolated and marked by a competant person, or he should rewire that section, either way he should have someone sign off its safe - and
if he runs or lets people run a 2.5 ring outside under pavement and without protection and visible then i would worry about the other things he lets
people do to his house.
[Edited on 6/6/11 by Krismc]
Built, Ivaed, Drove and now Sold - 2011 MNR VORTX RT+ 2000cc Zetec on R1 Throttle boddies.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 05:33 PM |
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i would never sign someone elses work off, unless i completed a full periodic inspection report and charged for it. why risk putting your name to
something which may not be correct? and then finding yourself in the firing line if it goes tits up!
good luck though mate,and as steve said. dont let it put you off.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 06:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stevegough
And Dave (Flak monkey) - get your house wiring sorted out properly! You know you would regret it when it burns down and the insurers refuse to pay
out after the investigators discover dodgy wiring that you knew about?
Its not dodgy, just doesnt comply with current regs  Certainly nothing unusual for a house of this age.
Everything is fused properly for the cable sizes. Looks worse than it is
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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stevegough
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 06:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by stevegough
And Dave (Flak monkey) - get your house wiring sorted out properly! You know you would regret it when it burns down and the insurers refuse to pay
out after the investigators discover dodgy wiring that you knew about?
Its not dodgy, just doesnt comply with current regs Certainly nothing unusual for a house of this age.
Everything is fused properly for the cable sizes. Looks worse than it is
So it is as 'safe as houses' then? 
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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flak monkey
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 06:37 PM |
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Yeah, that'd be the one
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Liam
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 07:45 PM |
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As above the whole idea people often have of doing it themselves then getting a spark to 'sign it off' is not how it's supposed to
work and many sparkies wouldn't entertain the idea. They are afterall putting their name to and becomming liable for someone else's work
and potentially risking their scheme registration, and it is arguably illegal. But if you can find a spark who's prepared to do that for beer
money based on whatever inspection and testing they are happy with, then fair enough - saves you paying building control fees.
The way DIY work is supposed to happen by the book is you inform building control via a building notice and they then become responsible for the
inspections and testing. Many LABCs (including mine) flat out refused to do this, instead insisting the DIYer contracted a spark to carry out a PIR
upon completion. Well if LABC's are happy to accept PIRs for a brand new installation and prepared to issue the completion certs that's up
to them! Things have changed slightly recently when the building regs were updated to allow LABCs to charge for the inspection/testing (previous
guidance said they had to pay for it themselves - hence all the refusal), so many now will do the inspection/testing properly and just charge extra
for it (in addition to your initial building notice fees). Some, like mine, still can't be arsed and still ask for a PIR.
The other option is getting your LABC to recognise your 'competence' and to accept the full Electrical Installation Cert from yourself, in
which case you can do the lot including testing. This is what I managed to do with the full rewire for my renovation . That option should have been
open for Teybrow too with his qualified old man, although for £75 quid may as well save yourself the bother, especially if the old man didn't
have calibrated test kit.
[Edited on 6/6/11 by Liam]
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BenB
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 08:16 PM |
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As said you shouldn't ask a spark to sign off your work because PartP is a self-certification system IE they sign off their own work.
But of course if you're up to the job you can get an electrician to do a cerficate of conformity and then get your local and friendly building
control officer to sign it off. Which is all above board. Trouble is the CoC costs, as does getting BCO to sign it off.
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davestarck
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 09:01 PM |
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You wouldn't attempt surgery on someone because you watch Holby City so leave the electrics to us sparkys
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JoelP
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 09:10 PM |
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one the one hand it isnt rocket science, but then again, fault finding is a pain without a tester. If you are redecorating, it might be easier to
rewire it all now. I cant stand certifying old bodged circuits, so tend to always run new circuits when fitting a kitchen.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 09:26 PM |
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flak monkey; if you have spurs on spurs on spurs on a 30 amp ring circuit then im affraid your cables arent correctly sized unless they are not wired
on a 2.5 t+e.
2.5 wont carry 30 amps. so what you have is a 30 amp radial circuit spurred of a ring!
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indykid
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| posted on 6/6/11 at 09:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by davestarck
You wouldn't attempt surgery on someone because you watch Holby City so leave the electrics to us sparkys
With all due respect, I think there's an order of magnitude of complexity between the two professions.
As far as I'm aware, the regulations and the specs are available and there are numerous books on the subject. Some would say that amateur
builders shouldn't make their own wishbones or uprights and I assume you'd strongly agree? Some poor lad's spent years at college to
become a coded welder....
I'm sure I could competently rewire a house if I put my mind to it, though I appreciate that many perhaps couldn't. It's stupid that
the amateur builder is unable to get their work more easily certified through schemes like SVA though.
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dhutch
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| posted on 7/6/11 at 01:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jossey
save some money and fit the wire under the floor if possible to the conservatory just leaving the wire in the right place for the sparky to wire
up.
Yeah,well thats proberly they thing to do.
- The reason for going round the outside rather than under the floor is the landing is all laminated flooring and then the bath room also cant easly
come up.
quote:
Originally posted by ashg£1000 seems like a pretty typical price to sort that out.
To be honest something like that wouldn't stop me buying a house even the seller didn't budge on the price. especially after you have
spunked all that money on surveys. from my experience of home surveys they are all a load of crap, the only thing you really need to worry about is
that the structure of the house is sound, the rest can be sorted as you go.
at the end of the day if you want a perfect house buy a new one and keep calling the builders back until its how you want it.
Yeah i think thats it really, its not a bad price for the house. The main grip is that as im letting it out to lodgers it needs to be right and it
needs to be right pretty much stright away so its just more upfront time/money. IM going round tonight to look at it and talk to the vender (spoke ove
rthe phone breifly this lunch) and although im still game to get £500 of it my main aim is to leave on positive terms.
Daniel
[Edited on 7/6/2011 by dhutch]
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dhutch
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| posted on 7/6/11 at 01:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by KrismcI agree i went to uni too and hate others trying too do my work, but law says competent people for most the
installs bit and full elecy for testing and DB. Id sign other peoples work off as long as i can see with the facias off and see the wiring both ends,
why not? unless they look like a plonk of try and hide things.
Any one can get 17th edition its so easy now.
EDit to say, id £1000 - £2000 to change your consumer unit, run a ring main to conservatory, test all you house wiring, and isolate all the unsafe
bits.
Sounds fairly fair.
There appears to be a whole host of 17th ed books, im not going to get it time for going round tonight but i wouldnt mind book on the regs, which/what
would you recomend for someone competant but unqualified tfor some bedtime reading?
quote:
From that report he now shouldnt be selling a house that is a now deemed a health and safety risk, at the least he should have the parts
removed that are unsafe or isolated and marked by a competant person, or he should rewire that section, either way he should have someone sign off its
safe - and if he runs or lets people run a 2.5 ring outside under pavement and without protection and visible then i would worry about the other
things he lets people do to his house.
Whats the stand point on this.
- Presumably theres nothing as such stopping you selling a house with bad wiring? Houses sell for restration that dont even have a safe roof.
Daniel
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Liam
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| posted on 7/6/11 at 02:21 PM |
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I did my rewire with...
John Whitfield's Electrician's Guide (plenty of technical detail)
The 17th On Site Guide (essential)
And probably most important of all: Signing up to DIYnot.com electrical section (particularly the search function).
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flak monkey
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| posted on 7/6/11 at 05:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
flak monkey; if you have spurs on spurs on spurs on a 30 amp ring circuit then im affraid your cables arent correctly sized unless they are not wired
on a 2.5 t+e.
2.5 wont carry 30 amps. so what you have is a 30 amp radial circuit spurred of a ring!
Some of the house is on proper ring mains, the kitchens for starters. The cookers all have their own fuses as do the electric showers. Then there is
another ring upstairs, with quite a few spurs.
Some of the rest is on radial and 15 amp fuses, but modern cable as its been partly rewired at some point, why they didnt put rings in every where I
dont know.
We will get around to it at some point. Know a few electricians
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Strontium Dog
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| posted on 7/6/11 at 06:43 PM |
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Up until 3 years ago I ran a business as a part P registered electrician. I once asked my registering body if I could complete and then certificate
someone else's abandoned work. (The other guy was niceic registered). They would not let me do it. They said as I had not been present when the
cables were put in I could not be aware of the rigours they were subjected to during erection. The could have been bent passed their maximum bend
radius or chaffed etc. We had to pull the whole lot out and start again, just as well as the other guys work was utter pants. So much for NICEIC!
That's not to mention having to have test equipment up to the 17th edition standards to test the installation. I don't know many amateurs
with £400 AVO's and RCD testers as well as ELI testers sitting in the draw and calibrated yearly. Of course, if you do have the right equipment
and the knowledge to wire to 17th Edition then you can do the whole thing on a building notice. This is what I now do for the odd job that I still
undertake. The last job a month ago was to wire up a grid tied solar array which was signd of on a building notice. Building control do NOT need to
check electrical integrity, they are not qualified to do so, only Wether you have adversely affected the buildings structure by drilling holes in the
wrong places etc.
If you don't know what you are doing, leave sparky things alone or you may well pay an unpleasant price. It is recognised that as little as 50mA
at 230v can kill a human being!
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dhutch
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| posted on 9/6/11 at 11:39 AM |
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Visited the property last night.
The new consumer unit is a sizable Wylex affear (something like 16 bay) with a main switch and a pair of RCDs each with around 6 MCB below it, around
half of which are empty.
The vendor has had his elec back to (or has himself) move the lighting circuit from the 16amp mcb it was on to a 6amp, and the same with the cooker
(40 to 32) and Imersion, also moved the stickers on the cover to suit. Which removes that issue. Why my elec couldnt have offered to do taht on the
day of the test i dont know and neather does the vendor.
The cabling to the conservator doesnt run outside as suggested by my elec, it runs in the ceiling/underfloor void, and although exposed at floor leval
in the conservatory itself due the skirting board being missing (not other option on where to run it given its floor-ceiling with glass) which i had
seen, this doesnt worry me much as i can just replace the skirtingboard. It also gives ample opertunity to inspect the cable thinkness at this end as
well as in the consumer unit and its is clearly 2.5mm not 1.5mm as reported. Not sure whats going on there.
The 6mm 'undersized' earth still remains, as i assume does the continuity on netural and earth of the one house ring main, but assuming
the continuity error isnt in the middle of a cable but behind one of the sockets the latter should be an easy fix if nothing else. I dont know whar
size the main earth should be, or the implications of it being 6mm?
The vendor also suggested that although the ring goes through each of the upstairs sockets, the downstairs ones are all on a spur of a single lenght
dropped from the ring main. All in 2.5m. Which is apprently, and i see no reason why it would have changed, how it was wired when the council put it
in back int 1983 before it became privatly owned. This wasnt picked up on the survay I had done.
I dont know how common that is, obviously you effectivly have a short lenght of 2.5mm with a 32amp breaker infornt of it, to a single double socket
(max 26amp). Thoughts?
Daniel
[Edited on 9/6/2011 by dhutch]
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