franky
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 06:08 PM |
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End of the red arrows?
Another pilot dead after ejecting whilst on the ground
Do you think its time we stopped flying them now?
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eddie99
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 06:12 PM |
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Such a shame but i dont think it'll be the end of the red arrows, i hope not atleast!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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r1_pete
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 06:48 PM |
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I was surprised with all the technology available, that the ejectors work when the plane is on the ground!!
Thats aside thoughts with his family, those pilots are the envy of the world..
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GreigM
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 06:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
I was surprised with all the technology available, that the ejectors work when the plane is on the ground!!
Thats aside thoughts with his family, those pilots are the envy of the world..
These aren't exactly new or expensive aircraft, so systems on them are pretty basic.
I sincerely hope this isn't the end of the Red Arrows - its the last thing the pilot would want.....this was nothing to do with it being the
red-arrows, just an aircraft equipment fault - could have happened to any aircraft/pilot, so shouldn't impact on the red arrows doing their
thing.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 06:59 PM |
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The guy wouldn't want his legacy to be the end of the Red arrows I'm sure, condolences to his family & friends.
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balidey
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 07:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
Do you think its time we stopped flying them now?
NO
Dutch bears have terrible skin due to their clogged paws
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jeffw
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 07:12 PM |
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Flying fast jets, being in the army or indeed being on a Warship are dangerous things to do. I know of several Naval personal who died on active duty
while I was in the RN (excluding wartime). It is accepted by those concerned that accidents happen and this seems to be one of those. My thoughts
with the pilots family but it would be the last thing they wanted to shut down the Red Arrows.
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chrisxr2
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 07:19 PM |
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pooing themeslves
There are some armourers and safety equipment fitters pooing themselves as this is more than likely a technician at fault. Modern aircraft (Not the
hawk) as far as i am aware have zero ejection seats that are perfectly safe to be operated on the ground. Sad news and as the government is trying to
save money this may well be another nail in the coffin of the red arrows.
Life moves pretty fast, if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
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steve m
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 07:30 PM |
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This really is a waste of a VERY good Pilots life, and such a shame
I work for Virgin Atlantic, and over the years have known several ex Red Arrows Pilots, and all of them have been and are real gentlemen
Infact ive just gone down the list of ex Pilots and i have personly known 17 !!
of which 6 i never even knew were ex Red Arrows !!
They must survive this tragedy, as they are a real part of why this country is such a big player in the whole scheme of our planet
My thoughts are with the familys
Steve
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JC
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 07:46 PM |
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Firstly my sincere condolences to the family and all involved in the RAFAT - a tragic few months for the team and the service.
Secondly, I hope (and believe) that this will not be the end of the team - they contribute too much to the nation for that to happen.
Thirdly, there are a plethora of things that could have gone wrong in this tragic accident. I would plea to anyone 'in the know' to keep
the speculation to a minimum until the facts are known.
A truly sad day
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franky
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 07:53 PM |
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I know a couple of active service pilots who aren't the biggest fans of the red arrows as it reduces pilot numbers where they're really
needed. "One man in the middle east risking his life day in and out(rotary+fixed wing) while others are having pimms at goodwood" is what
they say about it.
I feel for his family.
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chrisxr2
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 08:05 PM |
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sign of the times
Frankie it saddens me that the 2 recently deceased pilots get so much more publicity than the small footnote that another service person has died in
Afghanistan, whilst it is sad what has happened some of what you say rings true though this is not really not the time for that discussion.
Life moves pretty fast, if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
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scudderfish
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 08:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
I was surprised with all the technology available, that the ejectors work when the plane is on the ground!!
Thats aside thoughts with his family, those pilots are the envy of the world..
Ejector seats that work when the plane is stationary are a bonus. If things start to go very wrong with the plane at any point before it is fully
flying, the pilot can get out. Having what is effectively a bomb go off under the seat is never going to be a safe venture, but generally ejecting is
seen as more safe than staying with the plane.
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Daddylonglegs
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 08:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisxr2
There are some armourers and safety equipment fitters pooing themselves as this is more than likely a technician at fault. Modern aircraft (Not the
hawk) as far as i am aware have zero ejection seats that are perfectly safe to be operated on the ground. Sad news and as the government is trying to
save money this may well be another nail in the coffin of the red arrows.
My thoughts exactly 
Been in a similar situation myself many many moons ago when we lost an aircraft in Norway on exercise, several of us involved in servicings up to the
time we lost it had many days of 'grilling' which was not nice. Thankfully we did not lose the pilots, and it turned out to be an aircraft
fault, but God knows what it's like when someone dies!
Condolences to the family and friends.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 08:49 PM |
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I work with a guy who's son was/is an RAF instructer on Hawks and he tells me that the ejector seat used on the Hawk has had ongoing problems
for some time and that 3 years ago the planes were grounded due to ejector seat problems. My thoughts are with the pilots family
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bobinspain
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 09:19 PM |
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As soon as the news announced a serious ground accident invoving a pilot, I thought 'seat!'
With a zero-zero seat like the Mk 10 fitted to the Hawk, the pilot can eject at zero ft and zero knots and provided he's securely strapped in,
the rocket seat propels him to a height sufficient for the parachute to deploy safely.
The older seats fitted to the Jet Provost etc required a forward speed of at least 90 kts to ensure the seat remained in the air for a sufficient
interval to allow parachute canopy deployment.
The armourers (as mentioned in an earlier post) are responsible for seat safety and maintenance. When 'unarmed', the seat is in effect a
loaded rocket-gun which is prevented from firing by several safety pins. When the pilot straps-in, he removes the pins from the seat and stows them in
sight as a visual check that the seat is 'armed' and ready for firing in the event of a 'bang-out' (ejection) being necessary.
The ejection sequence is initiated by the pilot by pulling either of the two emergency handles available to him. One between the legs, but the
preferred one (for reasons of posture, back alignment and keeping the arms tucked in to avoid breakage on egress) is above the pilots head. Once
initiated, the ejection sequence is automatic and is complete in approximately one second, firing of the rockets and auto-limb-restraint initiation.
The pilot is on his way to 300 feet or so.
I'm unsure as to whether the Hawk seat has auto-canopy-jettison included in the firing sequence. Suffice to say everthing is (99.999%)
foolproof. Additionally, I believe that Martin Baker, the seat manufacturer have never lost an aviator due to a seat malfunction in the many thousands
of ejections that have been carried out. (pretty impressive).
The loss of this pilot is tragic, as indeed is unnecessary loss of any life. The circumstances will be investigated and lessons will be learned. The
Red Arrows should continue their work. It's what both the recently killed Arrows pilots would have wanted.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 09:34 PM |
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A very sad pointless accident.
Future of the Red Arrows and the defence of the realm perhaps is a topic best left for another day.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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mad4x4
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 10:16 PM |
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Thoughts are with the Pilots family
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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foskid
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 11:06 PM |
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A tragic loss, but I don't think it is going to finish of the Arrows. This is a seat problem not an aircraft problem.
Bobinspain is spot on with what he said and it looks to me like the ejection sequence operated correctly up to the point of departure from the
aircraft, the MDC cleared the exit path, the seat fired, gun extended and the seat went up the rails ok.
What you can't see from the pics is whether the rockets fired or not after exit and did the parachute deploy.
The should rockets fire automatically as the seat clears the rails, the rocket sear pin gets pulled out by a lanyard attached to the cockpit floor,
the rocket fires and sends the occupant up couple of hundred feet, feet first in the air whilst the drogue gun pulls out the chute. It looks to me
like it has failed at this point. There is going to be some really stress filled days coming up for a few people.
But I can't help but wonder initiated the ejection in the first place
My kindest thoughts go out to the pilots family at their hour of need.
[Edited on 8/11/11 by foskid]
He knows nothing and thinks he knows everything. That points clearly to a political career.
George Bernard Shaw
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scootz
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| posted on 9/11/11 at 10:40 AM |
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Very sad!
Does anyone know how RA's are funded?
It's Evolution Baby!
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tegwin
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| posted on 9/11/11 at 12:23 PM |
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The base costs are met by the tax payer as if they were any other MOD asset. However overseas displays and training is covered by sponsorship.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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02GF74
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| posted on 9/11/11 at 01:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
Another pilot dead after ejecting whilst on the ground
Do you think its time we stopped flying them now?
5 times that number died on the M5 last week, so we should all stop driving?
18,000 people died on the UK roads last year; that is 49+ per day - these deaths are small fry in comparison - so why the knee jerk reaction?
(re: talk of not increasing the motorway speed limit due to the M5 inicdent).
[Edited on 9/11/11 by 02GF74]
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bobinspain
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| posted on 9/11/11 at 02:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
quote:
Originally posted by franky
Another pilot dead after ejecting whilst on the ground
Do you think its time we stopped flying them now?
5 times that number died on the M5 last week, so we should all stop driving?
18,000 people died on the UK roads last year; that is 49+ per day - these deaths are small fry in comparison - so why the knee jerk reaction?
(re: talk of not increasing the motorway speed limit due to the M5 inicdent).
[Edited on 9/11/11 by 02GF74]
Er no ! One too many noughts. 1.850 died on the roads in 2010 and around 20,000 were seriously injured. However, I take your point.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 9/11/11 at 03:51 PM |
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quote:
Do you think its time we stopped flying them now?
So many people have this odd obsession with thinking it's time to stop doing things that kill people (rare events in risky situations as well) -
why on earth do people think we should stop doing risky stuff? How odd. Life would be so dull without risk takers and an element of risk.
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franky
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| posted on 9/11/11 at 04:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Do you think its time we stopped flying them now?
So many people have this odd obsession with thinking it's time to stop doing things that kill people (rare events in risky situations as well) -
why on earth do people think we should stop doing risky stuff? How odd. Life would be so dull without risk takers and an element of risk.
I was posing a question. Its nothing about it being dangerous, statically it must be safer than crossing the road.
My personal thoughts are not about it being dangerous but the cost to the tax payer and the effect it has on other areas of the Forces where manpower
is short.
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