tegwin
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:16 PM |
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Electricity and legality?
Lets say a friend of mine wanted to re-wire the control system for his central heating system..
Replace the time clocks, temp stats, valves etc
Because its such an "unusual" heating system my friend wants to connect them up in a slightly different way to the norm in order to
actualy have a working heating system (The installers didnt understand the simple concepts)...
Would this be legal for him to carry out this work? (What with that part P IPP garbage)
He is confident at working with mains and understands the risks....
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
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nitram38
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:22 PM |
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If you are found out or have an accident, then £5000 fine.
Those are the risks, it's up to him if he wants to accept them.
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SeaBass
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:29 PM |
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How would you be found out??
Thats the question that I keep wondering. Why do B&Q have all the equipment you need to wire a whole house. I know tradesmen don't shop at
those crazy prices!
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tegwin
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:37 PM |
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I guess if you kill someone or set the house on fire they might notice....
The system is already inplace so in effect all he is doing is replacing like for like, which I thought was legal?
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:51 PM |
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I'm a Service and Maintanance Engineer and work on these sytems all day.. with 0-Electrical qualifications as with most in the industry!.
On the whole electricians have no idea how to wire them up properly.
If its all Isolated properly and tested that it is then work away!
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nitram38
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:52 PM |
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You can wire things yourself, but you can't switch it on.
You will either have to get a Part P electrician or your local council to test it.
As I said the choice is his.
I'm a spark so I don't have these hassles!
Oh, I can wire anything, central heating, BMS, CCTV, Alarms and even cars!
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
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tegwin
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:53 PM |
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I know this is a whole other can of worms, but how hard is it to get the part-P piece of paper that makes things legal?
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nitram38
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
I know this is a whole other can of worms, but how hard is it to get the part-P piece of paper that makes things legal?
Unfortunately anyone can take a course and pass in 3 days.
Who would you rather have work on your wiring, a Part P bricky/builder or a 25 years experienced, 4 year apprenticed, Electrician?
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BenB
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 05:58 PM |
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How far does part P go? Can you e.g. add a spur socket on a ring circuit or doesn't the government trust anyone to do anything anymore?
When the day comes when you have to get a government official to come round and change your lightbulbs I'm leaving the country 
ps
Q. How many social workers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. 10. 0 to actually change the bulb but 10 to write "how to deal with darkness". 
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tegwin
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:04 PM |
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An apprentice trained electrician wins hands down, but IMHO, why pay someone else to do it when you can do it yourself to the same or better
standard....
Where can you do the part P qualification? It would be such a handy bit of paper to have for self certification of home work...
This "friend" of mine rewired a flat about 15 years ago, but now technically cant because of the lack of paper...sillyness at its
best
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:04 PM |
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to an existing ring - yes you can.
Check diynot.com or similar (google it) some very knowledgeable blokes there.
To get an item certified as safe the local building control have to come out. They charge £100 ish for small jobs and £300 ish for a full rewire I
believe.
I know cos when I come to sell my house I am going to have pay to gett he new consumer unit checked by them. The ass that installed it said he was
part p qualified, sent round an idiot to do the install and then refused to register it. He said if i told building control I'd get into
trouble. need to call him actually. thanks for the reminder!
quote:
Originally posted by BenB
How far does part P go? Can you e.g. add a spur socket on a ring circuit or doesn't the government trust anyone to do anything anymore?
When the day comes when you have to get a government official to come round and change your lightbulbs I'm leaving the country
ps
Q. How many social workers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. 10. 0 to actually change the bulb but 10 to write "how to deal with darkness".
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:06 PM |
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Think i'd be from the school of "it was always there" "must have been fitted before I moved in" etc.
Its my bloody house and i'll do as I like! I've paid enough for it... provided you happy enough yourself that it safe worry about the rest
later!.
If in years to come and it has to be checked over should you come to sell the house.. if you've done it properly in the first place then
it'll pass ok
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nitram38
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:06 PM |
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The point is that people do wire up their own homes and some of them manage to kill themselves or someone else.
Part P was designed to keep the stupid from touching their wiring.
No Electrician is going to tell you to DIY or they become liable for your work.
I would never tell anyone to "just do it" as I never know what people's skill level is.
Just ask yourself, how many badly built locosts are out there?
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:14 PM |
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quote:
Who would you rather have work on your wiring, a Part P bricky/builder or a 25 years experienced, 4 year apprenticed, Electrician
As an engineer who now does vehicle wiring in a firm of sparkies I'd NOT necessarilly trust any time served sparkie to wire a plug. Like all
trades you get good and bad.
IMHO you know the risks and you take the chances at your own risk. Therefore if your confident you won't have any problems and no one will no
any better. The fact that the "competent" people have already done the job sub standard would make me want them back to do it right while
your friend informs and supervises them to do it to his spec.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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tegwin
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:17 PM |
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He did advise them the first time...He even drew wiring diagrams for them and they still managed to get it wrong...
The problem is that, its not just a case of connecting the modules together, you actually have to use your brain, and finding an electrician in his
area to wire a plug, let alone a heating system is a bit of a mission
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britishtrident
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:17 PM |
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ISTR Most of the regs only really bite if your house is new enough to have the latest wiring colours.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Confused but excited.
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
to an existing ring - yes you can.
Check diynot.com or similar (google it) some very knowledgeable blokes there.
To get an item certified as safe the local building control have to come out. They charge £100 ish for small jobs and £300 ish for a full rewire I
believe.
I know cos when I come to sell my house I am going to have pay to gett he new consumer unit checked by them. The ass that installed it said he was
part p qualified, sent round an idiot to do the install and then refused to register it. He said if i told building control I'd get into
trouble. need to call him actually. thanks for the reminder!
quote:
ps
Q. How many social workers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. 10. 0 to actually change the bulb but 10 to write "how to deal with darkness".
I would contact building control and report him. He lied to you, you acted in good faith.
tegwin; He may be confident, but what counts is, is he competent?
Tell them about the bent treacle edges!
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nitram38
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
Who would you rather have work on your wiring, a Part P bricky/builder or a 25 years experienced, 4 year apprenticed, Electrician
As an engineer who now does vehicle wiring in a firm of sparkies I'd NOT necessarilly trust any time served sparkie to wire a plug. Like all
trades you get good and bad.
IMHO you know the risks and you take the chances at your own risk. Therefore if your confident you won't have any problems and no one will no
any better. The fact that the "competent" people have already done the job sub standard would make me want them back to do it right while
your friend informs and supervises them to do it to his spec.
It depends on their background. I have worked in a live UPS fed Comms Room enviroment for the last 5 years, after 20 years of installation on control
wiring and power generation, motors etc.
I agree that their are bad electricians, probably Part P candidates for sure.
But worse is your local extension builder who can now wire up your power and lighting after a 3 day course.
I get my work by recommendation, not by an "AAAAAAAAAA Electricians" ad in the yellow pages. I have to turn down work.
Afterall, I need time to build my cars!
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
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Aboardman
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
ISTR Most of the regs only really bite if your house is new enough to have the latest wiring colours.
but they where selling the new coloured wire before part p came in so how will anyone know, that it was not done before the part p came into force.
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nitram38
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Aboardman
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
ISTR Most of the regs only really bite if your house is new enough to have the latest wiring colours.
but they where selling the new coloured wire before part p came in so how will anyone know, that it was not done before the part p came into force.
Old wiring colors (normally Red/Black twin and earth) are not a fail on existing wiring providing it is safe from an Electrical point of view.
Any new installations now use Brown and Blue conductors (and black and grey on two way lighting),,
As you can generally only buy the new colours, the "It was here when I bought it" is a dead give away.
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andyharding
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 06:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nitram38
If you are found out or have an accident, then £5000 fine.
What's your source of this information?
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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Bigheppy
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:06 PM |
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Mad World
Part P is just another way of generating income. I am a City and Guilds Qualified Gas Service engineer with 25 years of experience but cant now work
in that field without going to college and passing a test for every type of appliance I would want to work on. I have been advised that it would cost
£5000 to resit them all. While working for british gas a flat exploded due to an unqualified person disconnecting a cooker and leaving an open ended
pipe. When the case went to court he was not prossecuted as he did not know what he was doing !!!!!! I would do it yourself 
[Edited on 20/11/07 by Bigheppy]
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nitram38
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andyharding
quote:
Originally posted by nitram38
If you are found out or have an accident, then £5000 fine.
What's your source of this information?
My Brain!
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andyharding
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:18 PM |
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Well to supplement your brain's lack of accuracy here's a quote from "The Electricians Guide to the 16th Ed of the IEE Wiring Regs
BS7671 and Part P of the Building Regs" page 237 section 11.9.3:-
"All replacement work is non-notifiable even when carried out in a kitchen or in another special location..."
So ignoring the question of the guys competence to do the job at least it is "legal" in the eyes of building control for him to replace
some C/H parts.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bigheppy
Part P is just another way of generating income. I am a City and Guilds Qualified Gas Service engineer with 25 years of experience but cant now work
in that field without going to college and passing a test for every type of appliance I would want to work on. I have been advised that it would cost
£5000 to resit them all. While working for british gas a flat exploded due to an unqualified person disconnecting a cooker and leaving an open ended
pipe. When the case went to court he was not prossecuted as he did not know what he was doing !!!!!! I would do it yourself
[Edited on 20/11/07 by Bigheppy]
I'm presuming you work for yourself?
Somehow we've been told that as its a big company we work for and that they have an electrical division.. as a company we can carry out part P
work even tho the people that are doing the work aren't electricians or part P qualified... sounds dodgy but fesable to me.
[Edited on 20/11/07 by MkIndy7]
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