greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:52 PM |
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Chris - that's a spot on anology.
Clearly building a custom map for a car is in your scenario 'category 2', whereas an off the shelf 'chip' is 'mass
produced' and is therefore available at a lower fixed cost with clear restrictions.
Taking this into more general tuning.....an old school expert mechanic wouldn't charge a fee to set up the timing/carbs etc and then sabotage
the installation so that only he could work on the car!
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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ChrisW
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by greenwood03
Taking this into more general tuning.....an old school expert mechanic wouldn't charge a fee to set up the timing/carbs etc and then sabotage
the installation so that only he could work on the car!
Nor would he have any right to complain if someone measured the position of the dizzy and the number of turns on the carb mixture screws (etc) and
'copied' them onto another car. He would argue that every engine is different and the skill was in minute adjustments for that particular
car.
Chris
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Johneturbo
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 02:30 PM |
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Makes me glad i've got PCV with Autotune!
I think the said company should come back on here to say they made a mistake not letting the guy know it was going to be password protected before
they started, and just give him the password to prove they are a decent company!
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greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 02:41 PM |
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fair idea Johnny.
as an aside -----Imagine that he'd sold that car to someone else who in turn finds that the map is locked, you'd be dead chuffed as the
buyer to be told that its only them that can tweak the map!
Let's hope that common sense prevails.....
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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atspeed racing
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 03:01 PM |
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i fully appreciate everyones opinions on this, it is a very grey area.
but allow us to explain further reasons from the tuners perspective.
we once tuned a car for a customer. several months later we receive an email from another company about the very same car, where the engine had gone
wrong. We requested the map file to be sent to us. The map file was NOT the one we had created, it had been edited and adjusted by the end user with
dramatic consequences....
Now, in the days of everyone wanting to sue everybody, Password protecting an ECU is a tuning companies only way of safe guarding themselves. Which is
why from then on where available, we lock all our maps.
What do we do on carburettors? our race engines? they are all sealed.
We stand by and guarantee our work - and this needs protecting.
If customers have problems with maps etc, we resolve them free of charge. sometimes even small alterations we dont even need the car.. e.g changed
gearboxes and crank sensor angle, customer sends the ecu to us and we alter the timing angle to suit. but generally once mapped correctly by
professionals.. the customer will not need to access it.
Also i do not want other tuners getting hold of my information, experience, how i map the cars etc. its extremely valuable information. as someone has
said on here, you wouldnt write a computer code, then willingly let someone copy and paste it. Its years of development and work that a competitor now
has hold of and can use and adjust to suit other cars...
Hope people can appreciate that view.
Now of course i can also see the perspective from the customer too. So we keep ALL maps on file.
BUT we DO NOT give out our password to anyone, customer or tuner. This can allow access unknowingly to any of our maps.
However, we can send a copy of the UNLOCKED file to the customer (via email/cd) upon request. but upon doing so, we are no longer responsible for the
file or its use. but in doing so, also means i have released a lot of information possibly to competitors. So of course we prefer our map only to be
accessed by us.
in short.. its a grey area, we appreciate its a potential problem and assist where possible - but we have to cover our ass!
hope that helps
- colin.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by atspeed racing]
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Johneturbo
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 03:31 PM |
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That's a very fair responce
Also understand what you say about how you tune a car with your own experience could be useful to another tuner.
Hopefuly everyone is happy now
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greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 03:31 PM |
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Colin, many thx for responding - i trust that the guy in question will be satisfied with receiving an unlocked copy of his map.
I appreciate that you gurantee your tuning - albeit i'm not sure what the guarantee covers, but surely it would be more practical if you are
concerned about the guarantee issue to make it clear that any changes to your maps voids any such guarantee?
I imagine that amending a map is like amending any other electrocnic file - it leaves a date / time stamp when it was altered - ergo any date change
would void that guarantee and absolve you of blame?
I understand your concerns about letting your knowledge 'walk out teh door' by means of copyig, although as you say a competitor would
have to adjust that 'base' information to suit another car, i'd have thought it was that extra bit of knowledge - the
'adjusting it to suit another car' that someone pays for? After all with the amount of books, internet articles etc that are out there
i'd imagine that certain tining principles hold good whatever the application and the real tuners worth of knowing how to tweak to suit an
individual application.
From a purely personal perspective i don't see/uphold the analogy of the computer programming in the light that you refer to. As Chris W
mentioned in one of his posts there are clear differences between having source code copied or providing a coded product for a customer for this use (
in any way that he wishes to use that code/product). Either way i'd have thought that this situation today has perhaps highlighted the need to
be a clearer upfront with customers so that they can make a choice as to whether to proceed under those terms of business.
Again, it's good that you've come onto the thread to put your point of view across.
cheers Mark
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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Irony
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 03:59 PM |
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The above 'tuners' perspective rings true I still don't think it should be applied to kitcars. If I take my Golf GT TDI to a
remapper I expect them to have heavily tested the map on a identical car and them upload this map straight to my car. I can fully appreciate them
locking this map as its a off the shelf product which is discounted to a lower price for the mass market. You wouldn't want someone getting
hold of your heavily developed map and spreading it around.
But a kitcar surely is a different thing. Each one is bespoke. If you hire a mapping company to write you a bespoke map for your bespoke car surely
it's yours to do with what you wish. If the client tampers with the map surely that voids any form of warranty.
Interesting topic and as said above 'we will be all reading the small print from now on'.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by Irony]
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edsco
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 04:09 PM |
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I have heard about such practices as a way to protect what software they may have put onto the ECU to gain the performances the guy went there for
anyway. Difference is, they openly tell you thats what they will do and you have to agree in writing before hand. If for whatever reason and want
someone else to tweek it, they offer a a free of charge service to return the ECU to they way it was before, but its all in an effort to protect their
software.
Whether its legal....whether its commercially the right thing to do....is it cricket? Who knows. The fact they inform you prior to doing anything
and with your consent, i'm guessing its perfectly legal, but i am no lawyer. You could argue that by an after market co. doesnt matter who they
are are technically tampering with the intellectual property rights of the manufacturer.........food for thought.
edsco
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 04:12 PM |
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Playing devils advocate here ( STATEMENT OF FACT> I can see both sides of the argument). However, from the point of view the person purchasing the
services of a 'Tuner', does the supplier of the tuning services make it 'Crystal Clear' at Point of Contact, Point of Service
AND Point of Completion of Service, that locking of ecu codes 'Will' be done where it is 'Possible' to do so. If this is NOT
done then it is arguable that the 'Customer' would have a case in court regardless of intent or reason as these were not the terms and
conditions that the 'customer' thought he was entering into. If intelectual property (reasoning) is good for one person, then it is
equally valid for the other.
Just my 2p's worth.
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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graham b
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 04:23 PM |
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right then
i am the guy to whom all these posts refer,
that is to say, it is my map that is locked.
having now spoken to Colin at "AT SPEED "
he is sending me an unlocked copy of the map
my thanks to him for a positive response.
my thanks also to MARK G for starting this thread
and achieving this happy result with the help from all those
who have posted an opinion.
many thanks fellas
regards
graham b
www.southernkitcars.com
[Edited on 1/9/11 by graham b]
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Nash
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 04:46 PM |
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Here is my take on this:
If the Tuner (ATS or any other following the same practice of locking the map) specifically declares in the contract T&C's that the IP sits
with them and the map will be locked then that is clearly legal. Additionally if you charge less for the service to retain the IP then that is a
defencable position and buyer beware. I would understand the application on the ECU being locked but it is less common for the config file to have IPR
and therefore be locked?
However the two reasons you give as to why you lock down the configuration file (map) are conflicted in my opinion;
1. Protect you from being sued by someone tinkering with the map and causing damage. - Understand but the map contains a timestamp audit trail and
given you retain a copy of the map for reference then you would have no problem defending any legal action.
2. You will provide an unlocked copy of the map to the customer. If that is the case then by definition you have lost control of protecting your
smarts. Given the engine configuration options open to tuners I personally wouldn't want to use a copied map from someone else in isolation of a
RR session anyway as all engines are different.
Isn't your USP that fact that you can tune an engine on your RR efficiently and optimally within the session. The output of that work (the
configuration file, map is a by-product unique to that car / engine config / session)? If not then flog the maps without the session as std maps and
charge through the nose for the open source product.
Given those points I am now struggling to understand why you lock the maps at all other then for race series? Unless it is to drive repeat business by
making people come back for every tune up? If thats the case then that's a restricting practice IMHO and if not illegal then morally iffy.
I understand your comments of explanation I simply fail to understand the logic from what you have said and on that basis I would not spend my hard
earned with any company that followed that methodology.
Discuss.
........................Neil
It's What You Do Next That Counts.
Build It, Buy It, Drive It:
Southern Kit Car Club
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dlatch
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 06:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
Makes me glad I've got a megasquirt!
hence why most mappers won't touch MS, but your average kitcar owner is not in the business of ripping off maps to resell
i can see the point on a generic car map ect same as the chip thing but if u own the ecu then i would not want any password protection as the map may
well need minor tweaks in the future
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ChrisW
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 06:31 PM |
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I think another analogy from the day job is relevant again:
If I set a server system up for someone I'll usually retain the master (aka 'root' password for myself and give them a different
password that lets them do everything they need to but not get access to anything critical that could fundamentally break the system.
Some clients insist they want the master password and I'm happy to give it, but before I do so I have a document I get them to sign that
basically says (paraphrased) 'Everything on the system is working fine. By accepting the master password, if something breaks in the future,
any warranty or guarantee is void and I reserve the right to charge to fix a problem'.
Now, I'm honest with my clients and if they do ask me to fix something and it is my fault I won't charge them, as I'm sure At Speed
are. However, in my experience, clients are not always quite as honest - especially when money is involved. In the past I've encountered
problems where entire configurations have been changed, the client denies all knowledge, then when presented with the evidence it usually turns out
that their son's mate's brother who once did a word processing course 'had a look at it' just before the fault appeared.
I can fully understand what At Speed are saying about locking, but perhaps they should consider a similar scheme. ie if the client wants to sign to
accept the responsibility for the map they can have it unlocked/on a cd/whatever. If they'd prefer to keep a warranty, the map is passworded so
that they (the tuner) will know that nothing has been changed.
Seems a good way to keep both sides happy to me!
Chris
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jonno
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 06:40 PM |
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So why did'nt said tuner offer to email the unlocked map in the first place... or is that too easy 
having fun on a budget
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greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 08:14 PM |
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Jonno - exactly! would have saved a whole load of grief. Moreover it would kind of be handy to actually be able to have the code to unlock the version
thats on the ECU 9 as opposed to waiting for a copy to be sent through through by email or posted cd )....i assume that this isn't offered as
that code is not unique to that customer. Frankly i'd rather have the 'non guaranteed' version from the start as i could then
control its use - or rather my ability to access it. Given that the last RRoad that i used for a minor tweak has disappeared i'd have
'lost' the ability to change the map and would be forced to start over again.
'Nash' - agree entirely. I think you've written what many who have read this thread will have concluded, that in reality the locking
of a map 'encourages' a degree of repeat business, especially as the customer in question was flatly told that he couldn't have the
code before this discussion/thread started.
Greengiant. Yep, agree all the way. IF and its a big IF, terms of business are made crystal clear at the outset there's no argument about locked
maps, intellectual property rights or anything else. Again in this case they certainly weren't.
Hopefully Graham will have the copy of his map tomorrow and then he can arrange to take another day off work to get the 'tweak' done.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, frankly i'd never have thought to ask a tuner/rroad if the work that i'd paid for was mine to use as i
wanted, clearly if i change my preferred RRoad tuner i'll think to ask a few more questions ahead of handing over my hard earned.....
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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se7ensport
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 09:18 PM |
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The legal perspective from an IP lawyer (my wife), which I will paraphrase:
The RR company were paid to configure software that already existed, not create it, therefore the settings belong 100% with the customer and it is
their property not the RR company.
The real world perspective from me, which I will paraphrase:
Too right they should provide an unlocked version of the code; how to lose business and alienate people.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by se7ensport]
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 2/9/11 at 09:49 AM |
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While this thread exists, maybe Colin can explain why Atspeed will not map leaner than 13.7:1. Their own words and verified by the graph of mixture I
recently saw.
The same mixture graph had a slight bump up at each end, and corresponded with upward bumps in the torque and power curves. This indicates that the
engine in question, wanted to be leaner than 13.7 to get more power. Yet, it is Atspeed policy(their words) not to map any leaner.
When someone is paying a helluva lot of money to get the engine set up for max power, they should get that, and not a compromised map that the rr
company sees as 'safe'.
Same story with ignition timing. Conservative, not optimum.
And the engine in question was supposedly being set up for racing.
It's a shame Tom Airey doesn't do ecu's, but he's the best at carbs and dizzys, and WILL push the limits to find the
ultimate option.
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 2/9/11 by Neville Jones]
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tomprescott
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| posted on 2/9/11 at 10:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
The legal perspective from an IP lawyer (my wife), which I will paraphrase:
The RR company were paid to configure software that already existed, not create it, therefore the settings belong 100% with the customer and it is
their property not the RR company.
The real world perspective from me, which I will paraphrase:
Too right they should provide an unlocked version of the code; how to lose business and alienate people.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by se7ensport]
I think you're paraphrasing a little too much - I work in transfer pricing and IP, being intangible, is the major contentious issue in almost
every project - i.e. who's the beneficial owner, legal owner, economic owner? They can be three separate parties for the same IP - potentially
more than three parties.
All I would say is that in this case, if it wasn't clearly stated beforehand that the map would be locked it's fairly unethical, as it is
not the standard practice to lock maps and takes advantage of an unwilling consumer's good faith. I would be looking for the RR company to
remove the locked map and refund the money......if there was a contract in place prior to the commencement of work and transfer of funds then the case
may be different.....
A bird in the hand....
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greenwood03
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| posted on 2/9/11 at 10:24 AM |
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Neville, the thread wasn't intended to be a ' lets have a pop at..' type of thread, infact the compnay in question wasn't
named, but ATSpeed were good enough to respond. Given that the original matter is being resolved I think that the thread has run its course. Anything
else relating to specific tuning practices and moans isn't really needed here. I know folks that swear by the quality of the company in
questions work, and that was never the question/debate at the outset of this topic.
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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BenB
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| posted on 2/9/11 at 10:36 AM |
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My take on this would be simple. If I paid for someone to apply a generic map for my engine to my ECU then I wouldn't mind if it was locked. I
was just paying for them to apply a bog standard map.
If, however, I was paying someone to work on a rolling road, adjusting parameters etc to suit my specific engine / TB combo, then I would feel that I
had a right to the produce of those hours on the rolling road IE the map itself.
Surely the whole reason why people get their engines mapped on a RR is because there isn't just a generic "map".
To use the IT situation, when I buy software from a company like Microsoft I don't expect the source-code. If I paid someone to work for me,
paying them by the hour to write the source code, I would expect to get the source code and the compiled program.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 2/9/11 at 04:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by greenwood03
Neville, the thread wasn't intended to be a ' lets have a pop at..' type of thread, infact the compnay in question wasn't
named, but ATSpeed were good enough to respond. Given that the original matter is being resolved I think that the thread has run its course. Anything
else relating to specific tuning practices and moans isn't really needed here. I know folks that swear by the quality of the company in
questions work, and that was never the question/debate at the outset of this topic.
I understand your thoughts completely.
I would still be interested to have answers to what I've put. Maybe they could start another thread to explain their practices on locking, and
mapping in general.
Cheers,
Nev.
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graham b
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| posted on 6/9/11 at 04:37 PM |
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right.....
the CD/map has arrived ....so now to take another day off
to get the tweaks done
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stevebubs
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| posted on 6/9/11 at 05:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by graham b
right.....
the CD/map has arrived ....so now to take another day off
to get the tweaks done
I trust ATS will be compensating you for this?
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graham b
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| posted on 7/9/11 at 05:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
quote:
Originally posted by graham b
right.....
the CD/map has arrived ....so now to take another day off
to get the tweaks done
I trust ATS will be compensating you for this?
dont know .......have not asked
but am open to offers.....
[Edited on 7/9/11 by graham b]
[Edited on 7/9/11 by graham b]
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