Schrodinger
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| posted on 24/8/21 at 08:12 AM |
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Now make sure that the DVLA has your scooter as being scrapped.
Keith
Aviemore
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joneh
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| posted on 24/8/21 at 11:32 AM |
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To make the registered keeper liable for a parking invoice (NOT A FINE), they need to comply with POFA.
They've completely failed to do that, as they didn't inform the keeper within the allowed time frame.
"A notice to keeper must be served not earlier than 28 days after, and not more than 56 days after, the service of that notice to
driver."
Follow the guidance on the Newbie Parking Forum on money saving expert.
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smart51
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| posted on 24/8/21 at 01:58 PM |
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In amongst the bundle of evidence in today's email is a copy of a letter sent to my old address. It is dated 12/12/19, the day after the van
was parked. It has Parking Charge Notice (PCN) and Notice To Keeper (NTK) in the heading. They say the registration was recorded by Manual Number
Plate Recognition (MNPR) on foot patrol.
I believe them that they sent the letter, but I didn't receive it because I no longer lived at the address they posted it to. I didn't
update the DVLA of my change of address with specific reference to that vehicle because it had been dismantled 6 years earlier and I had returned the
log book to them at that time. Where does that put me in terms of liability? I didn't ignore the original letter because I didn't
receive it.
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joneh
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| posted on 24/8/21 at 02:29 PM |
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I wouldn't worry, the evidence from them is clearly not your scrapped vehicle. Re-iterate this to them using a suitable template from the
parking forum.
It's not you. You're not liable. If they take you to court, go show them the evidence and then collect a payout from them for your time
and effort when they obviously lose.
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BenB
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| posted on 24/8/21 at 04:00 PM |
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"Manual number plate recognition". ROFL! = Bloke with a pad and paper that needs a trip to specsavers.
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 24/8/21 at 04:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
"Manual number plate recognition". ROFL! = Bloke with a pad and paper that needs a trip to specsavers.
yes, how and when was the system last calibrated?
oh and round here the bloke doing the ticketing rides round on a moped with L plates, and has done for many years
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 24/8/21 at 04:16 PM |
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how about:
it has been demonstrated beyond doubt: it was not my vehicle that was parked at the time. I consider any further communication from you to be
vexatious.
I shall therefore be charging from this point in time £100 per correspondence (apart from simple acknowledgment of receipt, or response saying sorry,
we got it wrong).
this charge will double with each communication. -ie email, phone call, or physical mail in either direction.
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smart51
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| posted on 25/8/21 at 09:50 AM |
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The DVLA have finally given me an answer (rather than asking me a question a day to avoid answering). They say they have had no notification that the
chassis of the donor vehicle had been scrapped. This is despite me submitting all the paperwork about the donor vehicle (including surrendering the
V5) during the registration of the new vehicle. I've only used a donor vehicle once. Is it normal to have to scrap the chassis of the donor
separately to stating it was dismantled and used as a donor vehicle?
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SteveWalker
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| posted on 25/8/21 at 06:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Theshed
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker
But after sending a letter warning that they have got the wrong person and advising of charges if they continue to send correspondence that needs to
be dealt with, further correspondence could be deemed accepting that contract - just as parking in a car park is deemed contractual acceptance of the
rules on the notice on the wall.
Obviously this would not apply to efforts targeting the right person, who was just trying to avoid paying, but an innocent party having to spend time
dealing with this has a right to be compensated for any effort they make after the sender of the letters has been informed of their mistake, but
continues to fail to properly check into their information.
No, sorry not a hope in hades that this would crate a contract.
So how does a notice on a post in a car park create a contract? It informs the driver of the rules and the penalties for not doing so - which is
exactly the same situation!
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Theshed
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| posted on 26/8/21 at 10:13 PM |
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Because it is not the same situation. You are attempting to draw an analogy and it simply does not work. To amount to acceptance of an offer (a
necessary ingredient of a contract) by conduct rather then words, the action needs to be ONLY consistent with acceptance. As a solicitor has a right
to send a letter without accepting a contract so continuing to correspond is not only consistent with accepting the offer. Parking a car on land where
a charge is displayed and where the driver has no right to park his/her car otherwise, is only consistent with accepting the terms. I acknowledge that
the difference is subtle but it is real. I hope I do not come across as too snotty - not my intention - but the reality is that sending out unilateral
demands for payment in response to a letter from a solicitor is really not a good idea.
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BenB
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| posted on 27/8/21 at 09:04 AM |
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To me the question is when they send a"notice to keeper" what is the keeper keeping? To me it's the vehicle not the reg number. The
ref number just cross references to a VIN. Isn't everyone in this situation in agreement that the vehicle parked was clearly not the vehicle
owned. When the parking companies get the keeper details presumably it also states vehicle details?
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smart51
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| posted on 27/8/21 at 09:25 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenBWhen the parking companies get the keeper details presumably it also states vehicle details?
The "Notice To Keeper" that they eventually sent to me has in big letters at the top the reg no plus vehicle make and model. It says
Piaggio X8. The vehicle in the photo is clearly a Ford Transit. I wouldn't expect the average person to know what a Piaggio X8 was, but the
top search on google would give you a clue.
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Toys2
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| posted on 27/8/21 at 01:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by BenBWhen the parking companies get the keeper details presumably it also states vehicle details?
The "Notice To Keeper" that they eventually sent to me has in big letters at the top the reg no plus vehicle make and model. It says
Piaggio X8. The vehicle in the photo is clearly a Ford Transit. I wouldn't expect the average person to know what a Piaggio X8 was, but the
top search on google would give you a clue.
In the photo that they sent, is the number plate of the transit legible?
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smart51
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| posted on 27/8/21 at 02:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Toys2In the photo that they sent, is the number plate of the transit legible?
There are CCTV shots where the plate isn't legible but there are photos from closer in that are. At first I wondered if they'd
"sharpened up" the CCTV somehow. It's more likely that someone took a photo from closer up but at the same sort of angle as the
CCTV
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Theshed
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| posted on 30/8/21 at 08:22 AM |
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The answer to this is found in the Freedoms Act 2012. In Schedule 4 there are definitions which include:
“keeper” means the person by whom the vehicle is kept at the time the vehicle was parked, which in the case of a registered vehicle is to be presumed,
unless the contrary is proved, to be the registered keeper
In other words the fact that a car is registered to you at the DVLA is not conclusive proof that you were the keeper.
'The vehicle' in my view means the car/bike that was actually parked and not include a vehicle on false plates. In this case it should be
straight forward to prove that you were not the keeper of that vehicle. I would suggest a firm but polite letter.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 30/8/21 at 10:10 AM |
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What farce. I'd be sending a letter to their head office saying their staff need to be trained how to tell a van from a scooter.
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WestfieldSEI
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| posted on 31/8/21 at 03:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger
Now make sure that the DVLA has your scooter as being scrapped.
I had this problem when I built my Westfield. I took it to Oxford local DVLA office to be registered with all the paperwork and the V5 of the donor
vehicle. The Westfield registration was completed easily by a lovely lady there who told me they didn't often get kit cars in for registration
came outside to check the VIN etc and for me to point out all the items used from the donor vehicle. She completed the paperwork, gave me a temporary
registration document and I drove away happy, got plates made up at my local motor factors and the new V5 arrived a few days later. The make and model
areas of the V5 were incorrect so I sent it back and got it amended and thought nothing of it for the next year believing my build to be over and
enjoying my car. In hindsight this error should have aroused my suspicions
Just over a year later I got a letter form the DVLA telling me the donor vehicle SORN had not been completed and I had to pay a fine. No problem I
thought just write back and explain there mistake. That went down like the proverbial lead balloon. No problem I thought, at the time of the
registration process I had the foresight to take copies of all the documentation including the V5, so i sent this in the to DVLA again re-iterating
that the car did not exist any longer, used as a basis for a kit kit etc etc. The response was even stronger with a now increased fine.
After much hair pulling I went to the Oxford DVLA office and was lucky enough to find the lady who had registered the Westfield and said she
remembered me (!) and would sort it out. The long and short of it was that she hadn't ticked the 'Scrapped' box on the donor V5 when
processing the paperwork so in effect it still existed on their system. She did as her word and sorted it all out and even sent me a letter
apologising etc.
Just occasionally you get a good one. Sadly the DVLA shut the Oxford office shortly after, probably because their customer service was too good! I
hope she got another job.
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