andyharding
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:24 PM |
|
|
By far the best thing if you have questions about Part P is just to read the "offical" document which can be downloaded here:-
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf
[Edited on 20/11/07 by andyharding]
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
|
|
|
|
|
billynomates
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:31 PM |
|
|
Why do all these electricians mumble on about 4 year apprenticeships, and 20 years experience. Yes people can do courses to get Part P registration,
but it's then down to the organisation (NICEIC, ECA etc), to come out and make sure they're up to standard. So if you use a part P spark,
then you get the re-assurance that they have public liability insurance, have been assessed etc.
Personally I think it's a load of cock, the people that are making the most cash out of it are the likes of the NICEIC etc.
As for your mates ch wiring, well as has been said, repairs to faulty and damaged wiring are non notifiable, so if it ain't working like it
should, it's faulty isn't it?
They'll be tellin us we can't clean our windows next unless we part Z qualified ladder operators.
To##ers
|
|
|
Bigheppy
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:31 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
quote:
Originally posted by Bigheppy
Part P is just another way of generating income. I am a City and Guilds Qualified Gas Service engineer with 25 years of experience but cant now work
in that field without going to college and passing a test for every type of appliance I would want to work on. I have been advised that it would cost
£5000 to resit them all. While working for british gas a flat exploded due to an unqualified person disconnecting a cooker and leaving an open ended
pipe. When the case went to court he was not prossecuted as he did not know what he was doing !!!!!! I would do it yourself 
[Edited on 20/11/07 by Bigheppy]
I'm presuming you work for yourself?
Somehow we've been told that as its a big company we work for and that they have an electrical division.. as a company we can carry out part P
work even tho the people that are doing the work aren't electricians or part P qualified... sounds dodgy but fesable to me.
[Edited on 20/11/07 by MkIndy7]
No just someone who has moved to another job after becoming fed up with RED TAPE 
|
|
|
Macbeast
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:37 PM |
|
|
The last time this came up on here someone confidently said you could work on your own installations - it was only if you were earning money that you
needed the registration. Is this not so ?
|
|
|
andyharding
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:39 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Macbeast
The last time this came up on here someone confidently said you could work on your own installations - it was only if you were earning money that you
needed the registration. Is this not so ?
If you are talking about Gas then yes, electricity no.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
|
|
|
JoelP
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:43 PM |
|
|
part p was allegedly caused by a fatailty from bad wiring, however im led to believe that the main aim was to get tradespeople who do electrics for
money up to a suitable standard. A 3-5 day course isnt enough to get joe blogs wiring competantly, however if someone has already been wiring (maybe
badly) for years then it does polish the finer points well, and also gets them testing and certifying. It doesnt stop cowboys (even ones with 4 year
prenticeships and 25 years experience!) from working, evidenced by the fact that i see diabolical electrics daily and VERY few people have been
prosecuted, even when caught.
I believe there is no penalty if the wiring is in accordance with BS7671, minor faults incure a £50 per day penalty until rectified. BS7671 does say
all work must be tested and certified though.
I dont believe this is like for like work, since it is being changed. However, assuming you have a certificate from when it was first done, there
should be no problems legally.
I did an NIC domestic installer course a few years back when part P came about, since i was already doing electrics daily in the course of fitting
kitchens. Still havent got round to the NIC site inspections because i now work for a company who are themselves registered.
|
|
|
JoelP
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 07:46 PM |
|
|
and yes, i did a lot of gas work yesterday for nowt, hence legal. Not as bad as it sounds, i sorted two leaks and tested it properly when finished.
|
|
|
Ian D
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:12 PM |
|
|
Food for thought. I understand there were around 25 electrocutions in the home per annum before this was brought in. Number now ? My guess about the
same.
Another labour party jobs for the boys piece of legislation. Dont produce anything just have people training people to assess people. HIPs the
same?
Finally as an IET Incorporated Electrical Engineer (telecoms as a specialism) I also cant legally wire anything. Believe me low voltage high current
is just as scarry.
What would be better is good clear instructions which people can use not a tome written in code subject to interpretation by a lawyer when something
has happened.
Ian
|
|
|
nitram38
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:15 PM |
|
|
Part P was created to get the building trade cheap labour.
20 years have seen the lack of proper apprentiships and therefore a lack of skilled labour to do the work.
For the last 5 years hourly rates for electricians has barely moved ( I am talking dayworkers) as there has been a glut of eastern europeans who will
work for next to nothing.
I am lucky, I work in a very technical enviroment and I get paid more than the average electrician. My qualifications and my experience got me the
job, not a 3 day part P course.
Employers and agencies are now realising that these "electricians" can't do the same work as the older brigade and I must get 10
calls a week trying to lure me away.
Ask your Part P builder to re-terminate a pyro, or wire a star delta motor. Do they know what a PDU or a PDP is?
Anyhow the original question was answered a long time ago.
What is the guy trying to do anyway, that isn't a normal heating set up?
Instead of complaining, do some homework and find a decent electrician to do the job.
He's either asking the wrong person, or what he is suggesting is something that they don't want to be associated with.
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:21 PM |
|
|
He already did find a decent electrician...himself!
As far as I understand, he has a pair of air source heatpumps and a hot water boiler all connected together with various temperature probes around the
place to switch things on and off according to loads and temperature outside etc...
Although the company that installed it "specialise" in that sort of thing, they didnt really have a clue...it took them 2 FULL days of
working just to wire the thing up and its still not right...
My friend was looking at the possibities of using a microcontroler to 'process' the temperature signals and then control the
heating....
The whole point of the control system is to make the heating efficient and simple to run....its neither at the moment!
Insidentally....if your too old to do a traditional appretnaship to learn the skills, and not "qualified" enough to get a basic job in the
sector..where does one start?
Appologies for the typos..im tired and typing like a spaz
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
|
|
|
nitram38
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:28 PM |
|
|
The wiring for this should be easy, it's the microprocessor programming that is the main problem.
The best system is a trend BMS system. You would need a PC and outstation interface cards, but this would be off the scale.
The cheapest is a PC with a card from RS.
Surely this has been done before so there must be a ready made bit of kit to do this?
It just occurred to me, why not use immersion heater thermostas that wrap around the outside of your tanks (if your temp range is within this
band)?
These will provide a simple N/O or N/C circuit and would be reasonably cheap.
[Edited on 20/11/2007 by nitram38]
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:37 PM |
|
|
Actually I have been designing the circuit for him (Hence why I have an interest in legality)...
based around a programmable IC using optoisolator T-drivers and Triacs to switch the various system components... The program will be written in
BASIC and is relativley straightforwards once you get your head around it...
The biggest issue is keeping the IC isolated from everything else so it behaves itself..lots of snubbers and filters im thinking 
Was just trying to get my head around the input side of things, short of using relays to step the 230V signal down to 5V other options looked a bit
OTT...Hey ho..lol
It does use as many standard N/O N/C temp stats, but a few inputs are having to be designed a bit more ....You could actually do what we want to do
with logic, but it would end up being so complicated...
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
|
|
|
nitram38
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:48 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
part p was allegedly caused by a fatailty from bad wiring, however im led to believe that the main aim was to get tradespeople who do electrics for
money up to a suitable standard. A 3-5 day course isnt enough to get joe blogs wiring competantly, however if someone has already been wiring (maybe
badly) for years then it does polish the finer points well, and also gets them testing and certifying. It doesnt stop cowboys (even ones with 4 year
prenticeships and 25 years experience!) from working, evidenced by the fact that i see diabolical electrics daily and VERY few people have been
prosecuted, even when caught.
I believe there is no penalty if the wiring is in accordance with BS7671, minor faults incure a £50 per day penalty until rectified. BS7671 does say
all work must be tested and certified though.
I dont believe this is like for like work, since it is being changed. However, assuming you have a certificate from when it was first done, there
should be no problems legally.
I did an NIC domestic installer course a few years back when part P came about, since i was already doing electrics daily in the course of fitting
kitchens. Still havent got round to the NIC site inspections because i now work for a company who are themselves registered.
You hit the nail on the head when you said minor faults.
What constitutes a minor fault is replacing a light switch or a light fitting etc, not installing a wiring system.
Adding extra sockets to an extension from a new or existing circuit, needs Part P or NIC registered persons to test before power is applied.
Just because you know people who have got away with it doesn't mean that it is OK.
A fine of £5000 can be imposed for those wiring and powering up their own work without the relevent qualification or tests/paperwork.
You £50 per day fine is for wiring that has been checked by a competant person and has been failed.
That is an entirely different matter.
If your company is doing a final inspection and "signing" the job off, then it is the same as anyone doing their own wiring and getting a
qualified person to check and connect it.
I believe the same goes for gas. You can do the work, but in needs to be checked and passed by a corgi registered gas fitter.
|
|
|
nitram38
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:51 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Actually I have been designing the circuit for him (Hence why I have an interest in legality)...
based around a programmable IC using optoisolator T-drivers and Triacs to switch the various system components... The program will be written in
BASIC and is relativley straightforwards once you get your head around it...
The biggest issue is keeping the IC isolated from everything else so it behaves itself..lots of snubbers and filters im thinking
Was just trying to get my head around the input side of things, short of using relays to step the 230V signal down to 5V other options looked a bit
OTT...Hey ho..lol
It does use as many standard N/O N/C temp stats, but a few inputs are having to be designed a bit more ....You could actually do what we want to do
with logic, but it would end up being so complicated...
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
You don't have to worry about the voltage of stats as they are simple switches. It doesn't matter if the switch 240v or 5v.
If you need to switch a bigger load, use contactors.
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 10:56 PM |
|
|
Unfortunately the tank stat and pipe stats currently in situ are all mains opperated and give a mains signal, as do the time clocks. (although
potentially they could all be altered to just switch a relay rather than supply 230V) But that gets complicated.
All of the ouputs to heaters etc are less than 2A peak (each) as they are simply 230V AC signals to trigger the various heaters (With exception to the
two and three port valves) so optoisolators and triacs is overkill to keep things over engineered
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
|
|
|
MkIndy7
|
| posted on 20/11/07 at 11:30 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Unfortunately the tank stat and pipe stats currently in situ are all mains opperated and give a mains signal, as do the time clocks. (although
potentially they could all be altered to just switch a relay rather than supply 230V) But that gets complicated.
All of the ouputs to heaters etc are less than 2A peak (each) as they are simply 230V AC signals to trigger the various heaters (With exception to the
two and three port valves) so optoisolators and triacs is overkill to keep things over engineered
[Edited on 20/11/07 by tegwin]
Surely there aren't mains operated they just use the mains feed to give power to something once they've switched over like to make pump
run.
Can't you disconect the mains feed to the stats and supply then with a simple 1 in 1 out system from the controller or have them switching to
ground, and then use the controllers outputs to power relays that give the 230v to whatever it is operating. Its safer that way as well using whats
known as 0 volt contacts.
Or if the control systems going to be good enough a simple thermistor and then maybe things can be modulated when coming up to temperatures rather
than switching on and off all the time.
[Edited on 20/11/07 by MkIndy7]
|
|
|
hughpinder
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 09:08 AM |
|
|
I have set up a system to integrate a straw boiler/solar in a heating system. I have used standard thermostats (which can switch 240V) to
switch a 24V supply signal triggering relay logic to start/stop the various pumps, valves etc. You could do a similar thing using 5V switching relays
(avaialable at RS etc). Also temperature switches set for fixed temperatures are available in NC/NO types for about 1.20 each from RS.
I am thinking of making the system more sophisticated using temperature sensors and PIC micro for the control, probably not until next summer
though!
Incedentally, since my setup only draws about 5A max out of the mains, and is plugged in via a 13A standard socket, do the new regulations apply as it
isn't a part of the fixed mains wiring of the house?
|
|
|
omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 12:43 PM |
|
|
The key phrase is competentcy. And who decides if you are competent???? certainly not a piece of paper that says you are.
The MOST dangerous electrical household opertion carried out every day in life countless times is changing a light bulb. Picture it if you please a
bulb breaks while in your hand exposing the live conductors inside and electrocuting you. AH you say but the light was turned of. How do you know
it's turned of in a two way switched circuit?? Do you always turn the power off at the mains (as you should) to change a bulb?? I very much
doubt it I know that I dont unless the said bulb does start to come away from the metal cap. I therefore state that we can ALL be incompetent at times
(when we know we should not) accidents happen and mistakes are made(that's why pencils have rubbers on the end).
I still say IF your freind has the ability and confidence to do the job and understands the risks and proper procedures then go for it.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
nitram38
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 01:03 PM |
|
|
If a light switch is installed correctly then that will tell you if it is off or not.
Something that your home DIYer probably doesn't know.
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 02:35 PM |
|
|
quote:
If a light switch is installed correctly then that will tell you if it is off or not.
Huh..... If you have say one light controled by two or three different switches the "on" position for each switch can change from top to
bottom very easily, so you wouldnt neceserily know what state each switch and the circuit was actually in...would you?
|
|
|
JonBowden
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 03:38 PM |
|
|
HughPinder said:
quote:
is plugged in via a 13A standard socket, do the new regulations apply as it isn't a part of the fixed mains
I think ths is the key here. If a system is plugged in via a normal socket, I don't believe the regulations apply, this is an appliance like any
other.
According to the document odpm_breg_033485.pdf :
quote:
You do not need to tell
your local authority’s
Building Control Department
about:
repairs, replacements and
maintenance work; or
extra power points or lighting
points or other alterations to
existing circuits (except in a
kitchen or bathroom, or
outdoors).
This means that I can do just about anything I am likely to want to do
Jon
|
|
|
nitram38
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 04:27 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
quote:
If a light switch is installed correctly then that will tell you if it is off or not.
Huh..... If you have say one light controled by two or three different switches the "on" position for each switch can change from top to
bottom very easily, so you wouldnt neceserily know what state each switch and the circuit was actually in...would you?
Then you should turn the circuit breaker off!
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 05:49 PM |
|
|
Wider use of 12v lighting is one of the reasons for the new regs apparently thre have been a few cases of badly over heated wiring because some idiots
didn't realise 12 volt wiring has to carry 20 timesthe current for the same job.
As regards automation best approach is a fanless PC motherboard and suitable software. I was going to suggest software called Autom8it to control it
but Autom8it seems to have gone belly up.
|
|
|
omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 07:20 PM |
|
|
quote:
Then you should turn the circuit breaker off!
Is that not what I've already said in my previous post regarding two way switching?????? It is in my mind. And as I said how many people do it
without the breaker off???
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
JoelP
|
| posted on 21/11/07 at 11:12 PM |
|
|
its a silly question really! If the bulbs in one piece of course you dont switch it off, if its smashed then you would be mad to try swapping it
without isolating the supply and wearing a good glove.
|
|
|
