stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 12:40 PM |
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a projectile is affected by gravity, regardless of its speed. If you shoot a gun from a height of 5 ft, and drop a ball from a height of 5 ft, both
bullet and ball will hit the floor at the same time.
Thats why cannons point upwards, to allow the projectile to gain height, and increase the time it takes gravity to pull it to ground.
so, either the weapon was fired into the air some degree, or they were using a very high velocity weapon - such as a rifle or whatever. could it
cover a mile in the time it takes the bullet to drop 5 ft? dunno - ive never fired a real gun in my life.
atb
steve
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Rorty
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 12:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by marcyboy
because we can 
legally and it's quite a cheap sport considering.
and as for the fella getting shot in the back of the head by a handgun over a mile away... handgun or a anti-tank missile ?, there can't be many
handguns that can shoot that far, can there.
i don't know much about hand guns but ballistically is there a handgun capable of travelling near a mile let alone over a mile.
answers on a postcard plz
It's deplorable you own a weapon and know so little about them?
Before anyone can (legally) drive a car they are required to learn about using it on the public highways and must take a test.
Why doesn't the same apply to gun ownership?
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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marcyboy
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 01:33 PM |
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i was being sarcastic rorty, plus we do get assessed by the gunclubs we have to belong to otherwise the licence gets revoked.
as far as i know there is no such handgun that could travel that far ... but my heavy barrelled target rifle does.... but not much further,theres only
a handful of places in the country to shoot greater distances... that's why i didn't go and buy a .50 calibre,
[Edited on 29/12/04 by marcyboy]
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Cita
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 03:10 PM |
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You have a fair point about misreading the part of your son Steve.If i insulted you with that than i'm sorry,it was not my intention.
The car comes in the debate because it used to be very easy to legalize a homebuilt car in the UK,before the SVA.
Instead of going the SVA route the govern. could easely dealth with the subject by simply banning homebuilt cars from the road and luckely they did
not but engaged themselves with a controle unit.
It's obviously a spread opinion that people who own a legaly bought handgun will sooner or later go on the street and start killing people as if
all the sportshooters or collectors are lunatics.
It's my opinion that i have the right to defend myself Steve.
Your opinion is that the state is doing it for you.
Perhaps i dont give/have all the answers to your questions but so far nobody have given me a clear explanation on some of my question,except that
i'm talking s"#te.
Why is the murder rate in Switzerland not higher than in any other western country inspite the fact that more than 50 percent of the family's
have a gun at home?
The same goes for Israel where perhaps 80 percent of the family's have a gun at home.
So the link between owning a gun and going on the street to kill people is not as strong as someone wants us to believe.
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Rorty
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 08:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by marcyboy
i was being sarcastic rorty, plus we do get assessed by the gunclubs we have to belong to otherwise the licence gets revoked.
as far as i know there is no such handgun that could travel that far ... but my heavy barrelled target rifle does.... but not much further,theres only
a handful of places in the country to shoot greater distances... that's why i didn't go and buy a .50 calibre,
[Edited on 29/12/04 by marcyboy]
My appologies, I stand corrected.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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marcyboy
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 09:01 PM |
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well at least i hope i've got a fair amount of knowledge as i use home made loads
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Peteff
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 10:30 PM |
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Why is the murder rate in Switzerland not higher than in any other western country inspite the fact that more than 50 percent of the family's have a gun at home?
Check this site out.
http://www.gca.org.za/facts/briefs/10switzerland.htm
Despite claims that Switzerland is one of the most armed countries in the world, only 27% of Swiss households have firearms, 60% of which are
military weapons.
Although firearm numbers in Switzerland are similar to other countries, its gun death rate is high, a consequence of its elevated suicide rate. SA
version of gun control.
http://www.gca.org.za/bill/newfeatures.htm
Looks like your kind of place marcyboy.
[Edited on 29/12/04 by Peteff]
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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marcyboy
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| posted on 29/12/04 at 11:05 PM |
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you must be kidding peteff.... there only allowed 200 rounds of ammo for each calibre
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flyingkiwi
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 08:00 PM |
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Actually a handgun bullet can travel a lot further than you think, for example:
a 9 mm 120 grain bullet fired out of an average sized handgun at 45 degrees elevation will travel about 2300 meters before falling - NRA Firearms Fact
Book. Yew York. Second Edition. 1983
A 9mm bullet travels around 1500 ft/s. It will travel around 2500 yards before it falls. Kelly, Kenneth Sergeant. 60th Precinct, City of New York.
Personal Interview. 21 May 2002.
The table below shows the average maximum range in yards of several types of popular handgun and rifle ammunition. The calculations were made for Sea
Level and 72 °F. Warmer temperatures and higher elevations will significantly increase the maximum range of the bullets. [see table below]
Caliber Weight/Type Muzzle Velocity (ft/s) Maximum Range(yd) Velocity at Impact (ft/s)
.22 Long Rifle 40 gr RN 1255 2000 300
.223 Remington 55 gr SP BT 3240 3875 545
30-06 Springfield 180 gr SP BT 2700 5675 800
9mm Luger 124 gr RN 1120 2400 350
45 ACP 230 gr RN 850 1800 330
44 Magnum 240 gr FP 1760 2500 350
http://www.hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DomnaAntoniadis.shtml
Sorry about the state of the table, cut and pasted it from a website. As to the guy who got it, I cannot find any information on the program to
confirm the distance or type of handgun used, however I do remember he was hit in the back of the head where neck iis, so explains why the bullet
entered with the lower velocity, and if I remember rightly the man got several years in jail for accidental manslaughter.
A complete accident in my eyes but still shows that miss use of guns is still leathal. I jjust don't see the point of why anyone needs a
handgun.
It Runs!!!!! Bring on the SVA!
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 08:04 PM |
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Cita - if there is a difference, perhaps its due to culture or mentality.
Apparently, in Japan, rape is really low - but there are the most horrendous forms of cartoon pornography comic books available. but it doesnt make
people rape.
In the UK if people are made to live in apartment blocks, then they tend to trash the place. They are generally in downbeat areas, graphitti,
voilence, etc. The mentality seems to be created in that environment. However, go to singapore, and everyone lives in apartments. Crime is extremely
low, there isnt any graphitti.
why? could be the attitude or people, or, that word again, the state. In singapore, if you drop litter, its a months salary in fine. When I was there,
a 16 and 18 year old couple abandoned a baby in a phone box. In the Uk they would likely get probation and councilling. In Singapore they get 8
years!
We live in a society, and have a mentality, that tends to voilence. There are too many people around that would use a gun too easily in a given
situation.
In most european countries, you would end up in prison for a very long time if you used a gun - even in self defence - you should have it anyway in
the UK.
atb
steve
[Edited on 30/12/04 by stephen_gusterson]
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Cita
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 08:09 PM |
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you probably are right Steve.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 08:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Cita
you probably are right Steve.
it would be a first
atb
steve
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Cita
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 08:29 PM |
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probably
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 08:57 PM |
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oooooh! Steven,
"go to prison for along time",
"even in self defence"
I think thats another debate entirely,Has not a senior police officer just said something about us being able to defend ourselves on our own property
using force if needed without prosecution.
Dont get me wrong,I dont advocate any type of violence but surely if you and your family were at risk you wouldn't let someone on your property
do any harm to anyone ?
This really is not a gun debating point but more of a moral grounds issue.
Steven, the floor is yours!
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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krlthms
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 11:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DEAN C.
oooooh! Steven,
I think thats another debate entirely,Has not a senior police officer just said something about us being able to defend ourselves on our own property
using force if needed without prosecution.
PROPERTY IS THEFT
Sorry guys, I have been taking a sabbatical from this thread until this coming weekend when the murder statistics for 2004 in my city, Chicago, get
published. I hear we may have lost the "murder capital of America" title, only ~450 homicides, instead of the usual ~650.
I will be back.
Cheers
KT
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 30/12/04 at 11:18 PM |
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Hi Dean
Of course id defend my home and my family. However, I wouldnt consider myself much of a fighter physically. Id probably come off worse ! So, in my
case, if I had a gun in the house, Id confront a burgular with it. It would be my best chance of a result. And if he came after me, rather than
getting the crap beaten out of myself, id probably shoot.
then Id be in court, and under current UK law it would be excessive force, and id get banged up.
so, all in all, not much of a result.
thats the problem really - a gun can be used as too much of a first resort. Women, little old ladies, 5ft 9 slightly built guys confronted by 15 stone
gym attending burglars, - it would be really tempting to shoot.
Burglars are a$$holes..... my video was stolen 15 years ago by a teenager.....but would it really be right that the law should be changed so that the
life of a burglar can be taken at will and that I coulda killed him? Burglary doesnt carry a death sentance normally.
We are concentrating a bit too much on a scenario - not the fact that there is an argument that guns should be freely available.
and that it would be wrong.
Im amazed that things such as the subject of this thread dont happen more often.
atb
steve
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The Shootist
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 07:12 AM |
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OK I've held my tongue......
but my hands are dirty and it tastes really bad. 
Stephan, are you sure that you have been to Wisconsin? Are you sure you have also seen Deliverance? Huh? Huh?
Wisconsin is big and flat with low rolling hills (called Dells). Deliverance was filmed in the Nantahale Gorge area of North Carolina (about 700 miles
south of Wisconsin). The movie is about a bunch of guys who go deer hunting on a whitewater river that is going to disappear when a new dam is
comissioned (Lake Laneer outside Atlanta Georgia).
My wife and I make the drive up the gorge on our way to Gatlinburg Tennessee several times a year and we have never been shot at, or even seen a
toothless kid playing a banjo.
There ..... Now I feel much better.....
I have to agree though that the difference in our attitudes about guns is mostly a cultural thing. Just please don't base your oppinions of the
US gun owners on movies or even the news reports, because our media is notoriously liberal.
Any occurance where some nutcase goes off and hurts people will ALWAYS make national news coverage, you never see anything about the 2.5 million times
per year that a legally owned gun is used to prevent a theft or something even worse.
That fact is that most gun related deaths in the US are criminal against criminal. Turf wars and such. The liberal establishment here has spent so
much time teaching the lower classes to expect a hand out that they can't earn a living on their own. Then a teenager realizes that he can get
out of the ghetto by setting up shop as a "pharmcutical sales entrepeneur" and viola more fuel for the drug war. The average drug dealer
in most urban areas is 19, has a BMW, a handgun, and will be dead next year. Banning his handgun would do no good, beacause he can import them from
the same folks he gets his product from. In most cases the gun was illegally obtained anyway, because he can't buy one till he is 21.
I personally feel that I know part of the reasonwe have had problems with gun crime in the last couple of decades. Years ago kids has toy guns to play
with...cops and robbers, cowboys and indians were games we all played. Then one day we got a BB gun, and almost certainly got stung when we were
careless and got shot with it. We learned that even a BB gun could hurt you. Later we got to shoot real guns, either with parents, grandparents, or in
school rifle teams. We felt the recoil, and knew that these would cause more pain than the BB guns. Some of us would hunt and see the damage that a
high powered rifle can do to a deer, or that a .22 can do to a fuzzy little bunny, and we learned to respect these guns.
But today bleeding heart liberals have decided that guns kill people, as opposed to the person who pulls the trigger. This mentality has led to guns
being taboo around kids to the point that kids will play with them like toys, becase they have no idea that they can maim or kill. And when the inner
city youth gets involved with the wrong crowd and first uses a gun, it's accompanied by the adrenaline rush that comes from commiting the crime.
This rush is an attraction that will bring this youth to commit the crime again and again, just to feel the rush.
I was raised around guns. Shot a .357 Magnum when I was 5, got a BB gun of my own when I was 6 (had sense enough not to get shot with one though,
stings like a bitch I'm told), traded (with my dads permission) for a .30-30 Winchester rifle when I was 10 (I still remeber how much it hurts
to shoot it, and I still have it 28 years later, and I got my 1st shotgun for my 12th birthday ( my grandfather got it so we could go to ham shoot s
together on Saturdays).
I currently own:
a Berreta model 92 9mm pistol
a Ruger KMK512 bull barrel target pistol .22
a .22 revolver which is in too poor condition to shoot
a Remmington 510 bolt action single shot .22 rifle (set up for rimfire benchrest shooting)
a Ruger 10/22 .22 rifle with a custom cherry stock(set up for benchrest)
my .30-30 that I've had since I was 10, and a Yugoslavian M48 Mauser that I got last year, it is presently 8mm but I plan to rebarrel it for
.22-250 for .....you guessed it BENCHREST.
My wife has a Kel-tech p-11 9mm pistol.
All of this hardware, living not only in the US, but in the gunloving south and I haven't killed anybody yet in almost 38 years.
But there's always tomorrow.
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marcyboy
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 07:48 AM |
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benchresting aint that for the old timers,
as for the distances i was'nt talking about maximum possible distance at 45 degrees,not unless the fella in question was shooting a barrell of
water that happened to be on his roof,
but you probably test shells and mortars too. where as i use a scope or iron sights. theres always one ain't there
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Jasper
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 11:08 AM |
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Pages and pages of justifications, and still nobody can explain why the US has such a high proprotion of gun related deaths compared to other western
(not the John Wayne kind ) countries that have far tighter gun control.
If you're all so goddam careful with your guns, how come so many of your people (and children) end up dead?
If you're not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room.
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 12:33 PM |
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im still waiting for a real life illustration where someone can tell me of an instance in the UK where someone has been saved from harm by a gun in
private ownership. Except for the whaco martin, who was offensive, not defensive.
Deliverance. I had been told it was filmed in Wisonsin. Pehaps i was told wrong.
Ive been to Kenosha, wisconsin, about 8 - 10 times. Its about 50 miles from the souternmost border with illonois into a very tall state that heads
northwards, and ive never been any further up than Milwakee. So, ive got no idea if its hilly, flat, or what past there.
you could visit london and have no idea what its like in the peak district, and thats only about 150 - 200 miles north. So Wisconsin could be like the
moon at the northern border for all I know
atb
steve
ps
if your wife caught you in bed with a woman, would you be happy knowing that she had that 9mm handy?
[Edited on 31/12/04 by stephen_gusterson]
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marcyboy
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 01:44 PM |
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no but it's a bloody good deterrent!!!
like when the uk banned handguns poland encouraged people to own handguns especially for people whose jobs were high risk, even bank tellers or so i
hear, and within 2 years the crime rate was less halved,maybe conrodski could shine more light on this subject.
but i think thats a good deterrent for the majority of hoods.
plus i remember watching bowling for columbine and did'nt canada have the lowest gunrelated deaths compared to how many firearms are owned.
[Edited on 31/12/04 by marcyboy]
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flyingkiwi
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 04:40 PM |
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Nope don't test mortars and shells, only fire the browning 9mm, gpmg and the sa80, -Royal Navy marksman at 100m with iron sight.
Some of us can shoot, and shoot quite well. I just don't boast about gun's being a cool hobby. When you see the left overs of a couple of
guys who were blasted by a couple of iraqis, you kinda loose interested in shooting for fun.
It Runs!!!!! Bring on the SVA!
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marcyboy
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 05:27 PM |
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thats why i only shoot targets , thats fun
i've heard loads of bad stories from WW2
and korea... men being cut in half by a vickers machine guns...ouch.
as for the .223 i shot one with a scope and hit the target at 500yds... but only just worried it...and did'nt think much of the AR15 at 100yds
either.
the same day we shared the 100yd range with a bunch of bench resters...lol,
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 08:00 PM |
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its not a deterrent!!!!!
when would a villan think ANYONE he was attacking in the UK had a gun!
And we still have a lower crime rate than the USA thats full of guns.
still not getting anyone taking up my request for an example of a gun protecting anyone in the uk!
atb
steve
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marcyboy
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| posted on 31/12/04 at 08:37 PM |
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if your wife caught you in bed with a woman, would you be happy knowing that she had that 9mm handy?
thats the deterrent
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