oldtimer
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 11:33 AM |
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An 'accident', a 'negligence', or an 'on perpose'?
Carrying on from Mr Henderson's last hypothetical.......
Should we even be using the term accident? I think true accidents are probably pretty rare events, such as failure of properly maintained components
etc.
Surely most of our incidents are truthfully negligences? where we failed to react quickly enough, drove too fast, or got-the-corner wrong???
And then there is the on-perpose, where driving is done with total disregard for others.
So, maybe we should say we were involved in an incident, which could be classified in one of the categories above, with a sliding scale of culpability
in each??
Just thinking, that's all.
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joneh
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 11:35 AM |
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I think Mr Hendersons other hypothetical answers that! 
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=101864
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 11:35 AM |
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All accidents are preventable at some point leading up to its occurrence, therefore making an accident a byproduct of someone's negligence,
oversight or shortcomings?
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 11:40 AM |
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Don't get me going again!
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 11:46 AM |
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Although quite thought provoking, i disagree with Mr Henderson (not often, but on this occasion).
Accidents are preventable, absolutely.
Accident Prediction comes in the form of a risk assessment, wether thought, written, discussed, or experience drawn.
From this risk assesment, a number of risks are identified - or "Predictable events identified"
These risks are then (consciously or sub-consiously) deemed as acceptable, or not. Unacceptable often comes in the form of fear, anxiety, or
discomfort (for those who have a conscience!)
In order to avoid these unacceptable risks of accident, injury or damage, we put in control measures such as (using Mr Hendersons Example) moving the
table to avoid banging a leg, and hence preventing the accident by default thus making it a predictable one removed.
In my training i have done a lot of work on Risk, both in Business Risk and in Health and Safety. ALL accidents are preventable.
A car rear ending a locost was preventable by increasing stopping distances, checking tyres etc etc.
A Car pulling out on a motorcyclist is preventable by the cyclist wearing Hi-Vis, and the driver taking additional precautions to look for him/her in
the first place.
A Scaffolder falling off of a flat roof is preventable using safety harnesses, fall restraint, fll arrest or netting - or even avoiding the task if at
all possible.
Hopefully, this gets the point across in laymans terms!
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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joneh
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 11:57 AM |
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If my tire blows on a nail as I'm driving along and I swerve and mow over an old lady, how could I have prevented this?
The nail was too small to see. Is it my fault for driving? Is it the fault of whoever dropped the nail? Or is it a risk the lady took by going out
for a walk?
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 12:11 PM |
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An accident is not necessarily preventable by the victims.
There is an element of risk in Driving, yes. There is n element of walking alongside the road, yes. However;
The root cause of the accident, is the nail, the bag from which it fell, and its owner.
We dont always see the consequence of our actions, however if it were possible to prove (which it isnt), then the owner of the nail could be
prosecuted under health and safety legislation as being negligent. Legislation clearly states that we must take all steps where as reasonably
practicable, to avoid accident or injury through our own acts or ommissions.
quote:
Originally posted by joneh
If my tire blows on a nail as I'm driving along and I swerve and mow over an old lady, how could I have prevented this?
The nail was too small to see. Is it my fault for driving? Is it the fault of whoever dropped the nail? Or is it a risk the lady took by going out
for a walk?
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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iank
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 12:13 PM |
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There are a number of meanings of the word accident.
–noun
1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap:
automobile accidents.
2. Law. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally
sought.
3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
4. chance; fortune; luck: I was there by accident.
5. a fortuitous circumstance, quality, or characteristic: an accident of birth.
6. Philosophy. any entity or event contingent upon the existence of something else.
7. Geology. a surface irregularity, usually on a small scale, the reason for which is not apparent.
For car accidents it's clear that the intention is they key, not whether there was fault. In insurance claims there is (theoretically) a
balance made to decide who is at fault. Was it the person who was going 5mph over the speed limit, or the person who didn't look properly
before pulling out?
We live in an analogue world not a digital one.
[Edited on 10/1/09 by iank]
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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Big Stu
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 12:25 PM |
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My mum always said I was an accident, does that mean I could have been prevented?
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oldtimer
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 12:26 PM |
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Beware of the origin of definitions, I am a geologist and have never heard of such a definition used in geology.
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 12:28 PM |
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Absolutely.
Assuming that there are no ill intentions (this would then turn the incident into a criminal one, not an accident) both my post and the one from big
Stu-
Always wear a condom.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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joneh
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 12:42 PM |
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How about acts of God?
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 12:47 PM |
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well then that wouldnt be an accident would it.
If a tree is blown over by a hurricane into a road and you hit it, you shouldnt have been driving if you couldnt see a tree.
Stop being pedantic.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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JoelP
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 01:40 PM |
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there are no accidents. There are things that could not reasonably be forseen, but there is nearly always something that could've been done and
someone that can be blamed.
When a tree blows down for instance, you could blame the man who drove into it, or the weather forecaster who led the driver to believe it was safe to
drive, or the council who failed to spot the tree was potentially unsafe.
But these are freek 'accidents'. With everyday collisions it is much easier to apportion blame.
[Edited on 10/1/09 by JoelP]
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Theshed
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 03:04 PM |
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In law to an event is cause by negligence only if there is a failure to take reasonable care. The word reasonable is the key to this delightful
debate. If it is excluded then presumably Adam and Eve are to blame for everything bad that has ever happened.
Where every party has taken reasonable care and something bad still happens (because the steps to prevent it were eiter unreasonable or the event was
unforseeable) then the courts are happy to regard that as a "pure accident"
Works pretty well it seems to me. If there was moral culpability without fault then we could not get up in the mornings let alone drive nasty big bits
of metal.
At work fed up and bored!!
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 03:11 PM |
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snap.
By the way, i think its perfectly reasonable of Adam to have Poked Eve. I just hope she was worth it!!! 
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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smart51
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 06:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Accidents are preventable, absolutely.
ALL accidents are preventable.
This is the type of opinion that is driving this country to an health and safety obsessed hell. Sure, by never letting anyone do anything, all
accidents can be avoided but that really is not a good thing.
Some things do just happen accidentally. Accept it. Do can do something diligently, having had reasonable training and being quite capable but then
something unwanted happens accidentally.
An accident is something that happened that wasn't intentional or a result of incompetence, lack of ability or training or attention. Accidents
do happen.
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mr henderson
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| posted on 10/1/09 at 07:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
An accident is something that happened that wasn't intentional or a result of incompetence, lack of ability or training or attention. Accidents
do happen.
I'm inclined to agree. There are too many things, people and possibilities in this world to foresee all the things that can go wrong.
The mere act of preventing an accident will turn it into a non accident. Accidents which are prevented are the same as people who aren't born.
They don't exist. They could have existed, but they were prevented and therefore don't.
Things which happen and which fit the general description of accidents therefore cannot be prevented.
IMHO
John
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 11/1/09 at 10:25 AM |
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I agree totally with smart51. OK, all accidents are technically preventable, but short of being omniscient, often only with hindsight. It's all
too easy after an event to follow through the chain of events leading to an 'incident' and say 'oh you could have avoided that if
you'd stayed at home with you tinfoil hat on', but no one can claim to be able to fully assess in advance the combination of any number of
improbable events.
Risk assessments and the like should be seen as the formalisation of an application of common sense to a problem, not a method of ensuring absolute
safety / removing all culpability / apportioning blame. Look at a task, think about what the reasonable risks are, and take steps to reduce them to an
acceptable level (note that risks don't always need eliminating entirely). But after all of this, there's still always the chance that
something you couldn't predict will still go wrong, poo happens after all. Deal with it.
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 11/1/09 at 05:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Accidents are preventable, absolutely.
ALL accidents are preventable.
This is the type of opinion that is driving this country to an health and safety obsessed hell. Sure, by never letting anyone do anything, all
accidents can be avoided but that really is not a good thing.
Some things do just happen accidentally. Accept it. Do can do something diligently, having had reasonable training and being quite capable but then
something unwanted happens accidentally.
An accident is something that happened that wasn't intentional or a result of incompetence, lack of ability or training or attention. Accidents
do happen.
Not at all. I did say in an earlier post that there are acceptable risks. The interpretation of these acceptable risks is individually
subjective.
I said that all accidents are preventable, because they are. However, we live in a far from ideal world, so yes they do happen. I never said they
didnt and, Smart51, i do accept that accidents do happen.
You may have been trained to the required standard, and you may be competent to carry out a specific task however, if a variable is introduced by
another party then yes an unforseen set of circumstances will cause an accident, though if the person responsible for those additional variables had
made steps to prevent them, then the accident would have been averted.
So, Smart51, i would say that it were archaic "it just happens" attitudes that have caused the over safety conscious state of our country.
A Risk assessment is exactly as you describe Martyn_16v. It is never "a method of ensuring absolute safety / removing all culpability /
apportioning blame." and i never said it was.
I agree with smart51 in that the country is getting far too beureaucratical with its health and safety, but what i am saying is that most of the time,
there is an alternative safer method to do something, or something to make the task safer - Going back to acceptable levels of risk and the
consequences of not carrying out the task.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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