dhutch
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 04:32 AM |
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Trailer towing requirements changed again this year...
Just been double checking my facts, and noticed that as well as it changing after 97, its now changed again after 2013.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow
Licences issued from 19 January 2013
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:
-small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
-trailers weighing more than 750kg, where the combined weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to
pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.
You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.
Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can drive either:
-a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM (with a combined weight of up to
4,250kg in total)
-a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in
total)
For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.
Which as I read it basically just changes it from the MAM to the actual weight, as all CatB vehicles are 3500kg max.
And removes the requirement for the trailer to be less than the curb weight of the tow vehicle.
While still making no reference at all to the fact the trailer must also (I presume) not exceed the manufacturers rating for the vehicle in questions
towing, and or max train, capacity
https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories
Daniel
[Edited on 22/8/2013 by dhutch]
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 05:31 AM |
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so if you passed the test between 97 and 2013, you have tighter restrictions. Looks like they are not relaxing the rules for those 16 years.
that is going to cause even more confusion!
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 06:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
so if you passed the test between 97 and 2013, you have tighter restrictions. Looks like they are not relaxing the rules for those 16 years.
that is going to cause even more confusion!
Quite a lot of people still don't realise they have any towing restrictions on their license
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 06:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
so if you passed the test between 97 and 2013, you have tighter restrictions. Looks like they are not relaxing the rules for those 16 years.
that is going to cause even more confusion!
Quite a lot of people still don't realise they have any towing restrictions on their license
Agreed and the lack of clarity (or downright obfusication) has given the authorities plenty of wriggle-room should they need it, perhaps for certain
err... "revenue generating" exercises?
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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dhutch
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 06:42 AM |
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The information provided, and in the public domain, is in my mind shockingly poor. Particular given the potential repercussions if you get it wrong.
I understand the the pages I have linked to are (given the appearance, presumably) intended only as an introduction for Joe public, and typically (but
not in this case) then link to the original or more detailed documentation, but even if there was a link to more information, its poorly laid out and
miss leading.
I have even had to disagree with a fellow motorsports competitor, who was a B+E trailer test instructor, about what I could or could not tow on my
2005 CatB, as he repeated stated I could ONLY tow a 750kg trailer. Started from the fact I had the kitcar in tow at the time. Working within my
understanding of the 3500kg whole train, and curb weight, limits.
The fact that they have changed the rules, but no retrospectively changed the requirements for people who passed there test between 01/01/97 and
19/01/13 is also in my mind bonkers. Along with picking the 19th of Jan, of all dates!
Daniel
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andylancaster3000
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 07:25 AM |
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Bonkers.
Time for a petition methinks. Not that they ever come to anything...
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richardm6994
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 07:32 AM |
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if I understand that correctly...
after 97....
your towing vehicle can be up to 3500kg pulling a max 750kg trailer...giving a 4250kg train weight
or.....
if your trailer is over 750kg, then your train weight reduces to 3500kg..... and the trailer is less than the kerb weight of the vehicle
after jan 2013....
is basically saying that train weight must not exceed 3500kg in any situation
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dhutch
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 07:32 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andylancaster3000
Time for a petition methinks. Not that they ever come to anything...
Yeah, I have thought of writing one.
In the mean time I have just submitted the below as feed back on the direct.gov website.
The information on this page is in my mind poorly presented and inconclusive, which given the mass lack of understanding present in the this area,
the consequences of getting it wrong, and the lack of further information available is unacceptable.
I have filed other comments, but to me, key faults appear to lie in the fact that:
-The 97-2013 section details "a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)" where the from 2013
section does not, despite the vehicle limitations of a Cat B licence remaining the same, which adds to confusion in what's changed.
-In the 97-2013 section where it details "a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing
vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)" it is unclear if it is the actual weight of the trailer, or the trailer MAM, that
must be less than the curb weight. And if it is the actual weight of the car/trailer, or the car/trailer MAM, that must be 3,500kg or less in
total.
-There is no mention that the trailer must also (I presume) not exceed the weight allowed by the vehicle manufacturer for that vehicle.
Please reply to this feedback.
Daniel
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dave_424
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 08:01 AM |
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Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed
between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 08:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed
between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
I believe that any trailer with a gross weight over 750kg must be braked.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 09:13 AM |
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Whatever, the whole thing is generally a mess. Even the simple weight thing is open to so many different interpretations. I have been VOSA'd
*four* times this year on my way to various circuits, after more than a decade of being ignored.
Some say....
If you have a X Ton plated trailer, you need a towing vehicle with a X Ton rated towing capacity, regardless of what weight may or may not be on the
trailer. So a typical middy (or box) trailer plated at 2 Ton, empty, may be illegal behind your Mundaneo.
If you have spare payload capacity in your towing vehicle, that can be allowably used in the trailer, up to the towing weight of the vehicle (see
above) to the limit of the GTW.
And a whole lot else.
I'm an old fart, so don't have to worry about the licence. I have a 3.5T old Transit, which is *on private use* so doesn't need a
Tacho when towing (Some say however....) with a 5.5T GTW. Trailer us plated 2 Ton. This should tick all the boxes, but it still causes a mutter,
particularly from the bored Policeman that has escorted me off the road to VOSA.
Paranoid, I guess I'm on a 'must be watched' list somewhere too...
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dhutch
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 09:46 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
VW golf with towing capacity: 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked. Kerb weight of 1388kg.
Passed between 97 and 2013.
Buggy weighs approx 400kg
Would I just need a braked trailer?
Tbh, a for a 400/450kg buggy, you should even be able to get it under 750kg with a suitable trailer.
While the direct.gov site now makes it far from clear, its my understanding that for you, the MAM of the trailer combined with the max weight
(GVW/MAM) of the car, must be under 3500kg, as well as the trailer MAM being under the kerb and manufacturers weight.
The NTTA site contains what I believe is a fairly verbatim copy of the original direct.gov entry:
Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes (category B) with a 750kg trailer (4.25 tonnes total MAM).
Category B vehicles with larger trailers i.e. > 750kg, provided that the combined MAM does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and the gross MAM of the trailer
does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. To be able to tow combinations outside this ruling requires the passing of an additional
test.
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/law/driving_licences.aspx
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/law/identification_plates.aspx
Daniel
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dhutch
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 09:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Whatever, the whole thing is generally a mess. Even the simple weight thing is open to so many different interpretations. I have been VOSA'd
*four* times this year on my way to various circuits, after more than a decade of being ignored.
Its is very much and uninformed mess.
However, the most interesting part of this post is the you the first I have heard of that's actually "been VOSA'd" so to
speak. When I started towing my 12ft*6ft*4ft 1200kg second hand diy build 'racebox' behind the rather smaller looking 306 I carried the
print outs from the weight bridge, for the car, and trailer which with me in the glove box having used them to satisfy myself I was legal and to come
up wit the number to stamp on the plate. But have since stopped doing so, maybe I should start again.
At the time I regretted stamping it 1200kg, as although the cars signed off for 1200kg the curb weight was actually something like 1140kg, and the
loaded trailer about 1100 but having now swapped the 306 for a E36 compact my kerb weight about 1250kg ish.
All madness
Daniel
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mcerd1
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 10:39 AM |
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the rules could be a lot clearer 
but I'm all for having to sit an extra test to tow - where I am I see a lot of dangerous idiots with unsafe trailers and no idea how to drive
them 
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed
between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
I believe that any trailer with a gross weight over 750kg must be braked.
even if its under 750kg it might need brakes...
whatever you licence says your not allowed to tow more than the car is allowed to - each car model has a quoted MAM for braked and unbraked
trailers
if your cars rated for an unbraked trailer with 400kg MAM - then it would need brakes on a 750kg MAM trailer
[Edited on 22/8/2013 by mcerd1]
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mcerd1
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 10:48 AM |
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another thing most folk don't know is that the 'grandfather rights' on old licences will expire when you have to renew your
licence...
(I don't mean if you update your photo or change address, your name etc...)
so if you've got a pre-97 licence you'll automatically have B+E (car+trailer), D1 (minibus) and C1 (7.5ton) licences without having to sit
the tests...
but you'll also see that they are only valid till the day before your 70th birthday
at this point you need to reapply for your licences - but unless you have sat the tests for the trailers etc. you'll loose these licences at
this point!
obviously this won't affect that many people, but some folk have been caught out
[Edited on 22/8/2013 by mcerd1]
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 11:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
the rules could be a lot clearer
but I'm all for having to sit an extra test to tow - where I am I see a lot of dangerous idiots with unsafe trailers and no idea how to drive
them
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Is there any outline for if the trailer is braked or not?
If I want to tow an autograss buggy behind my VW golf with towing capacity 1400kg braked, 600kg unbraked and a kerb weight of 1388kg and I passed
between 97 and 2013. Would I just need a braked trailer? (buggy weighs approx 400kg)
Dave
I believe that any trailer with a gross weight over 750kg must be braked.
even if its under 750kg it might need brakes...
whatever you licence says your not allowed to tow more than the car is allowed to - each car model has a quoted MAM for braked and unbraked
trailers
if your cars rated for an unbraked trailer with 400kg MAM - then it would need brakes on a 750kg MAM trailer
[Edited on 22/8/2013 by mcerd1]
So I am not wrong (phew  ) but not entirely right either (dammit  )
I am just glad I have taken and passed the B+E test. If you have not, I would recommend it to anyone who needs it.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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myke pocock
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 12:41 PM |
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GOOD GOD!!!! My head hurts from even just reading the posts let alone trying to understand them. Should I continue in blissful ignorance towing my
Skoda Estelle on my twin axle trailer behind my Berlingo Multispace or is Big Brother going to catch me out???
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 12:43 PM |
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Viper - outline exactly what's in the test for us?
I'd recommend not writing a petition, I'd recommend finding the address of your local MP and asking them to take it up on your behalf. I
did.
quote:
GOOD GOD!!!! My head hurts from even just reading the posts let alone trying to understand them. Should I continue in blissful ignorance towing my
Skoda Estelle on my twin axle trailer behind my Berlingo Multispace or is Big Brother going to catch me out???
This is part of the problem to me though, I think the government documentation is actually quite clear, but there's so much mis-information
posted around the internet and given out in the pub it's unbelievable.
That said, the changing goalposts are a farce. I've never met a cop that knew the law, I've met a few (when I was oblivious to my mistake)
who didn't check. You'd only find out in a crash situation.
But ultimately it is up to you to determine what you are and are not allowed to drive on your license.
[Edited on 22/8/13 by coyoteboy]
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 01:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Viper - outline exactly what's in the test for us?
Basically, you drive around with a small(ish) twin axle box trailer (not a massive car type but bigger than the halfords variety).
You perform a unhitch & hitch exercise and a reversing exercise then you go out on the road.
It is similar to the driving test but the whole thing can last ~1.5hours start to finish with ~1hr of actual driving around.
Imagine taking your driving test again but driving on motorways is included and it feels much longer.
The same 15minor or 1major fault = fail criteria applies though and the test centres are not as widely available as they are typically HGV test
centres.
I went for a 2 day course with this school www.learnourway.co.uk/content/trailercaravan/trailertowinglessons.html (others are available) but the
pictures do show the type of trailer that is required.
Any help?
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 22/8/13 at 08:31 PM |
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Yes, 4 times this year so far.
Two pulls straight off the M5, Taunton, destination Castle Combe, police motorcycle escort. 1st pull was quite 'friendly', just a quick
weight check followed by their version of the law. The 2nd pull was pure madness. The policeman was intent on finding something illegal with the van,
took him over an hour, constantly naggng the VOSA guys to find fault. The experience did nothing to encourage me to respect the police force, very
little has.
One pull just before Sleaford, destination Cadwell. VOSA guy just asked what was in the trailer and my intention, then waved me on.
One pull just before Scotch Corner, destination Knockhill. Again another encounter with a particulary fine example of the police
'service'. Forget the VOSA safety stuff, he viewed the trailer as having a stolen car in it. No number plates on the car... oh for sh1ts
sake...
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johnny chimpo
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| posted on 24/8/13 at 01:48 PM |
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Am I the only one totally confused with what I can and can't tow?
I passed my test in Jan 98 so therefor fall in the post 97 category. I'm looking to buy a trailer to tow my MNR to track days and my tow car
will be my company car 2011 VW passat estate 1.6 tdi.
So how do I work out what type of trailer I can and can't tow. Looking at the tech specs for my tow vehicle it has an unladen weight of 1505kg
and a gross weight of 2010kg. The trailer load limit is 1200kg and my MNR weighs just under 500kg with me sitting in it. So what type/ weight of
trailer can I tow legally?
Why is something so simple so bloody difficult to work out???
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StrikerChris
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| posted on 24/8/13 at 02:04 PM |
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Im probably wrong but I have always taken it that the max laden weight of your tow vehical+the max weight stamped on the trailer mustnt exeed 3500kgs
regardless if theyre both empty.i know someone who was nailed because of that and they never got near a weighbridge to see what weight it actually was
but they had the potential to pull more than what their licence entitled them too.that said ive chanced it in the past, towed a 3.5tonne digger on a
1.2 tonne trailer behind a 3 tonne landrover past a police check and they never battered an eyelid as they know less about it than us.sticky bit would
be if there was an accident I think.
Chris
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sonic
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| posted on 24/8/13 at 04:13 PM |
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So, i have a 2011 2.2 deisel Honda Accord saloon, kerb weight 1550 kgs with a maximum towing capacity of 1700 Kgs braked trailer.
We have 2 small ponies and i tow an Ifor williams twin wheel horse box, i have had the hole lot on a weigh bridge with both ponies in and the total
combined is 2800 Kgs.
The trailer is plated with a unladen weight of 800 Kgs and a gross of 2100 Kgs
I passed my test in 1982 so have full B+E entitlement etc
So do i presume that it is illegal ?
Also am i right in thinking if you apply the total gross weight should not exceed 3500 Kgs for the total rig then if you had a heavier car say a Disco
or something it reduces your trailer weight and capacity!.
Something doesn't sound right here and i may of got my wires crossed above, i see alot of Mondaos etc towing those big twin axle caravans around
and they must weigh more than my horse trailer when they are loaded with food / clothes / and all the holiday bumph.
Mick
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 24/8/13 at 05:21 PM |
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if you have B+E then 3500kgs doesnt apply... its a problem tho legally , because you should be on a tacho ...
land rover can pull 4 tonnes , according to handbooks , which immediately puts you into trouble if you were to do it .
Also if your VIN doesnt have a max GVW then you potentially can tow what you like .
to put it easily , its only if you have a licence after 97 that legally tells you what GVW your allowed to tow !!
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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dhutch
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| posted on 26/8/13 at 04:17 AM |
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Just found this doc, which supports the fact the 3500kg is the MAM of car and trailer.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_185825.pdf
[Edited on 26/8/2013 by dhutch]
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