andyharding
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 04:20 PM |
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Part P?
I'll be buying a house as an investment soon and figure my "oh that socket was there before 2005" won't work when restoring a
whole property.
What's the quickest, easiest and cheapest way to get whatever paper big brother needs me to have so I can self-cert electrical installations?
I have no formal electrical training.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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froggy
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 04:47 PM |
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unless you know a spark well there is no option but to cough up and pay for a re wire  especially if its for rental you will need a safety cert
anyway. if you are doing major work some sparks will let you do the donkey work and run all the cables leaving them to make all the connections and
fit the board, thats how i did my spec build but they still charged me £750 per house for second fix and test.
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Wadders
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 04:50 PM |
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AFAIK there is no easy or cheap way to self certify. even with the relevant electrical qualifications, which will cost you thousands if you have no
experience, and all the calibrated test gear needed you will still need to certify through a recognised body, NIC, NAPPIT, ELECSA etc, i do it through
corgi. My advice would be to find a good niceic registered sparky and let him have the hassle.
Bloke i use charges me £50 for a single circuit test and certify, obviously more for a full install test and certify, as it can take a while to do.]
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andyharding
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 04:56 PM |
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So I'm probably best doing the work and paying for it to be inspected by a certified sparky? £50/circuit doesn't sound bad.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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froggy
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:01 PM |
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yes if you can find a spark that will cert someone elses work ,you may find most wont test work they havent done my spark let do he firdt fix as it
was new build so i couldnt hide anything and i still had to change a few things before he would second fix everything.
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:07 PM |
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a layperson is unlikely to know the regs well enough to do work to a high enough standard that a proper sparky will be able to certify it, or that
they would risk putting their name to it.
I did a 4 day course, cost about £300, which gave me a domestic installer certificate. Then you have about £400 in NICEIC fees, and the same again for
a decent test meter (i use a metrel easytest).
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Wadders
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:15 PM |
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Yeah, you need to find a sparky and build up a relationship with them, so they know they can trust your work. Also the big stumbling block on older
properties is usually the earth bonding which needs to be up to scratch. Even if the circuit you have worked on is ok, certain parts of the
installation may need bringing up to spec i.e main bonding to Gas and water. Its a minefield, thats why even though i'm qualified to self
certify (at great cost) i now sub it to a sparky whenever possible. New regs for water/plumbing are now in, and will be coming into force soon. same
scenario as gas and leccy, you will need to be qualified and self certify. Spend more time filling in paperwork than fitting boilers soon.
Originally posted by froggy
yes if you can find a spark that will cert someone elses work ,you may find most wont test work they havent done my spark let do he firdt fix as it
was new build so i couldnt hide anything and i still had to change a few things before he would second fix everything.
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andyharding
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:42 PM |
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And all this to try and save the 10 people a year that die because they are stupid enough to get shocked. What a load of bollocks!
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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froggy
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:43 PM |
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welcome to the wonderful world of property developement
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:45 PM |
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you dont have to be stupid to get shocked! I think 10 lives a year is well worth the effort, especially if you knew one of them!  As it happens, i
get shocked most weeks at work, the novelty soon wears off. 
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andyharding
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:49 PM |
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If I can learn the SVA regs I'm sure the electrical regs would be a walk in the park
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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froggy
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:56 PM |
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theres your answer then but as a percentage of a refurb budget the wiring isnt that large ,and more money can be saved by doing all your
plumbing and c/h work
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JonBowden
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 05:58 PM |
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My reading of the regulations suggested that I could do the work myself and get building control to inspect it. If I need to, I can find the relavent
.gov web address
Jon
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Wadders
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 06:12 PM |
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See my post above r.e plumbing, wont be long before you will need a certificate in joinery to lift the floorboards!
and more money can be saved by doing all your plumbing and c/h work
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caber
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 06:30 PM |
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stock up on as much red and black cable as possible, remember to put sleeving on the earths don't run the cables too neatly and it was all done
during a previous refurb sir!
I am sick to death of deffective work by "proper" electricians particualy when doing work "to make existing wiring conform to
regs". I lost 3 weekends of work on my locost due to incorrect breakers being installed in the supply to my lock up, in this case a 20A B rated
breaker in the locked supply location and 80 A breaker at my end with 16A breakers to the sockets!!! It took a while for me to realise why the supply
failed at weekends, the 20A was being blown out by my welder but the 16a was staying in.
Getting the correct ratings and trip speed of breakers is vital to proper protection I have another job where the hierarchy of breakers was so wrong
one lamp blowing took out a whole commercial room lighting!
The other repeated fault I come across is defective Neutrals in 3 phase distribution boxes usually links not properly tightened or neutrals all
connected to earhing bars, this is a serious issue as the result can be 380V between live and neutral not healthy for any equipment!
Finally in this rant dodgy earthing particularly on domestic installations. The worst I saw was a bath at 240V because all the earth wires in the
original installation were connected to plumbing however the drain runs had been changed to plastic pipe! The "new" earth bonds were
connected at the bath sink etc however when given a tug came out of the wall as they were not run anywhere just shoved into the wall and plastered
over.
All these jobs have been done by fully qualified sparks working for a variety of established electrical contractors. I may not have qualifications BUT
I KNOW DAMNED WELL I HAVE NEVER LEFT ANY WORK IN A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS CONDITION. If something happens it will remain extremely difficult to pin
responsibility on any contractor or individual electrician after a year or so following practical completion.
Caber
[Edited on 8/2/2006 by caber]
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andyharding
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 07:13 PM |
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The problem is I am buying to do up and sell so a survey by a buyer may turn up the fact I haven't filed any paperwork if I just wing it.
I've just read the entire Approved Document P as found here:-
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/4000000001253.html
Section C 1.26 (Where installers are not qualified to complete BS7671 certificates) states:-
"... Building control bodies will carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense, not at the householders expense."
Can anyone confirm that I could do the work and then have the local authority inspect it free of charge?
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 08:02 PM |
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i cant tell you for sure mate, but i thought that there was a £50 per day fine for any errors. Deffo worth a call to the local authority though?
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andyharding
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| posted on 2/8/06 at 08:18 PM |
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This is very interesting:-
http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1131042
Worth reading it all.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 3/8/06 at 07:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by caber
Getting the correct ratings and trip speed of breakers is vital to proper protection I have another job where the hierarchy of breakers was so wrong
one lamp blowing took out a whole commercial room lighting!
Tell me about it, one of my sites has some really dodgy stuff going on. The place is out in the sticks and has a really noddy power supply, surges and
power cuts are a weekly occurence. The way they've run the breakers and supply in one building means that every surge trips out one of the ring
circuits, which somehow also cuts all power to a catering unit next door. Top job if they get a surge late evening, to come back in the morning to
find all the freezers off  And of course it's somehow all my fault for pluggin my equipment into their half-cooked installation...
Part P gets on my nuts a bit, I'm an electrical engineer yet i'm not trusted in my own home...
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JoelP
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| posted on 3/8/06 at 08:06 PM |
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blue and brown wire was available early in 2004, before part p came into force, so provided any work you do happened then you are sorted.
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andyharding
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| posted on 3/8/06 at 08:53 PM |
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I emailed Building Control regarding this:-
Sir
Please can you send me more information on the processes involved with the local building authority testing and certifying electrical work carried out
by a person not qualified to issue a BS7671 certificate i.e. DIY?
Many thanks.
--
Regards
Andy Harding
And got the expected response:-
Dear Mr Harding
I refer to your e mail enquiring about the inspection and testing aspect of a
notifiable electrical installation under Part P of the Building Regulations.
Stoke on Trent Building Control advises applicants at a very early stage
(included on application form) that they should have a qualified electrician to
undertake their electrical work (City & Guilds 2381 Installation and 2391
testing).
On completion Building Control will then require a certificate for design,
installation and testing to be issued in accordance with BS7671together with
proof of qualification of the competent person who has carried out the work.
A small charge for administration is required with the application, dependant
on the cost of works.
If I may be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Kevin Obrey
Building Regulations Manager
I'm still waiting for a response to my reply:-
Although not formally recognised I have a good understanding of BS7671 and am competent enough to undertake any works to the standard required. As
such, hiring a "qualified" electrician would be a waste of money.
My interpretation of ODPM Approved Document P (2006 edition), specifically Section 1 1.24-27 (page 11/12), leads my to believe that in the event an
installer is not qualified to complete a BS7671 completion certificate (i.e. DIYers) then Building Control or their sub-contractors will inspect and
test the installation and issue a Building Regulations completion certificate or a final certificate respectively. Furthermore, Building Control will
carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their own expense not mine.
Please could you clarify the above, specifically with regard to the inspection and testing process required for "DIY" electrical
installations?
I look forward to your response.
--
Kind Regards
Andy Harding
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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JoelP
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| posted on 3/8/06 at 09:18 PM |
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their first reply seems very wrong doesnt it. They have completely missed the point that approved contractors do not need to inform building control
at all.
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andyharding
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| posted on 3/8/06 at 09:43 PM |
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Only those registered under a self cert scheme.
You can have C&G and not be registered self cert and then you need to notify.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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JonBowden
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| posted on 4/8/06 at 07:48 AM |
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this document might be of use:
You do not need to tell
your local authority’s
Building Control Department
about:
repairs, replacements and
maintenance work; or
extra power points or lighting
points or other alterations to
existing circuits (except in a
kitchen or bathroom, or
outdoors).
You need to tell them about
most other work.
If you are not sure about this, or
you have any questions, ask
your local authority’s Building
Control Department.
A clear flow chart shows that normal people may carry out the above work. See attached document
Jon
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quinnj3
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| posted on 4/8/06 at 07:20 PM |
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builing control
i might be wrong but i don't think building control will carry out the tests themselves but will require a test certificate, signed by a person
who is qualified to stand over the electrical instalation. I know most sparky's wouldn't like going in to test another persons work
especially someone who has little or know knowledge of electrical systems. BUT If you buy a copy of the IEE ON-SITE GUIDE BS 7671 :2001 (2004) (This
is a shortened version of the full regulations and much more understandable)and carry out the work accordingly i would just ask a local contractor to
inspect the system. Don't tell them it was a home done job or he may not want to know.
Hope this helps
PS The regs might have been updated but if so a new version of the on site guide will be available.
my aim is to build my own locost wether it takes me a week or 10 years to get started, i'm sure i will sometime
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