NS Dev
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| posted on 7/11/06 at 11:11 PM |
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Calling any electricians - strange tripping out probs
Calling any electricians
I am not totally thick when it comes to electrics but I have a problem at the mo.
My tig welder keeps tripping my earth leakage trip.
It worked fine 5 months ago, no problems at all.
Nothing else in the setup has changed, apart from that last week I drained the water in the cooling system and replaced it with fresh water with
antifreeze in it.
Now after 5 minutes or so of running it trips the earth leakage trip.
it does this whether it is being used or not. In fact it "seemed" to run for longer whn it was being used, but that might just be the
impression that I got.
It just sits there with the coolant pump and cooling fans running, then trips the house electrics out on the earth leakage trip.
Any ideas???
The machine itself works fine, no probs at all, and as I said, it trips when not welding, so the HF cicuitry that I know leaks to earth very easily is
not even turned on!
I'm tearing my hair out on this one as I can't run it without the earth leakage breaker as everything is wired through it (as it should
be) and it worked fine before!!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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RazMan
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| posted on 7/11/06 at 11:18 PM |
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If the only thing that is different is a water change, maybe some water was spilled somewhere and needs to be dried out?
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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nitram38
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| posted on 7/11/06 at 11:21 PM |
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Welders tend to get damp in storage. I never use an earth leakage breaker with welders as they are prone to tripping.
All I can suggest is putting the welder on an additional breaker that you will need to get fitted externally from your fuse board or invest in a
split fuseboard which has two main breaker sections.
One with elcb and one without.
It is not a good idea to have your whole house on an Elcb as you can trip it easily. The most common cause is your fridge or freezer. People find
this out the hard way, when they come home from holiday.
I never fit fuseboards with only one main elcb.
Risk of shock with welders is low due to their low voltage output, so you need not worry about it.
Just to add, I am an Electrician with 26 years experience.
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 7/11/06 at 11:25 PM |
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Could it just be the damp weather ?????????
I've seen cookers, with pans that have boiled over, have the same effect (as razman says) continue days afterwards.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 07:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nitram38
Welders tend to get damp in storage. I never use an earth leakage breaker with welders as they are prone to tripping.
All I can suggest is putting the welder on an additional breaker that you will need to get fitted externally from your fuse board or invest in a
split fuseboard which has two main breaker sections.
One with elcb and one without.
It is not a good idea to have your whole house on an Elcb as you can trip it easily. The most common cause is your fridge or freezer. People find
this out the hard way, when they come home from holiday.
I never fit fuseboards with only one main elcb.
Risk of shock with welders is low due to their low voltage output, so you need not worry about it.
Just to add, I am an Electrician with 26 years experience.
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
Right, thanks, that certainly sounds reaonsable, I didn't spill water in anything electrical (little bit on the bottle platform under the
coolant pump motor but nothing excessive and its gone now)
The weather is damp though and my garage is unheated and does get very damp.
I've never had problems with any other welder in there but this one is a lot more complex with, I guess, more opportunity to track to earth on
the various circuits.
Next question then, guess I need an electrician to put the additional board in my house, don't I? Would do it myself, but I think that is now
against the law isn't it?
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 07:48 AM |
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It is not illegal to do, but you must get it checked and tested by an electrician with a part 'P' certificate or your local council
officer. (£5000 fine otherwise).
You should not tackle this job unless you are sure you know what you are doing.
You are talking about a supply that has possibly a 800amp fuse in the substation.
If I lived closer, I would do it for you for the cost of the parts!
It should only cost about £250-300 for a split board including parts and labour, although it may be cheaper where you live.
I am used to London prices!
Don't get it done by your local elctricity board, unless you want to pay double my estimate!
If your board is close to your welder set up, then install another external breaker, but remember that if your garage is detached from the house, the
rest of the power outlets (other than the welder) must be on the elcb.
Just changing the whole garage circuit to non-elcb is not wise and is breaking the regulations.
If your garage is attached to the house, then this regulation does not apply, but I would always recommend an elcb for all potentially damp
buildings.
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
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02GF74
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:06 AM |
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if the only difference is the coolant, I wonder if the conductivity has changed so that some current is "leaking" through the coolant,, it
being in a container which I presume somewhere has a metal surface that is connecect to earth wire?
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:10 AM |
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An elcb works by monitoring live and neutral wires. The current flowing through the circuit should be the same in both, unless it is leaking
somewhere.
The most common 'leakage' on a welder is damp transformer windings.
Water is conductive anyway.
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:21 AM |
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Cheers Nitram!
It's all rather awkward now as I have a single 50 amp spur out to the (detached by a fair way! ) garage which powers everything (lighting via a
seperate fused connection unit in the garage)
I'm guessing the full answer then is to replace the existing 50 amp connection with a 30 amp one in the existing consumer unit, and run a new 30
amp cable to feed the sockets and the lighting fused unit, then run the existing 50 amp cable to a new non-RCD connection/breaker unit in the meter
cupboard, specifically for the welder.
Bit of a pain in the a!!! Doh!!
Was wondering about whether the antifreeze had raised the conductivity and that was the problem. I am seriously thinking about getting a drum of
de-ionised water and trying that in it, to see if that cures it.
Still odd that it trips when not welding though!!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:31 AM |
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The alternative is to swap your breaker in the main fuseboard to a normal supply and install an elcb unit in the garage on your power sockets only.
The lighting does not have to be on the elcb circuit. It is only where portable appliances are use that this regulation applies.
Your welder can go on the non elcb supply as well.
This will be cheaper than running new cables and a lot easier to do.
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
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JoelP
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:32 AM |
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how about getting a less sensitive RCD fitted? Normal ones being 30mA, how about getting a 100mA one? Not sure on the legality of this as i tend to
stick to the beaten path with electrics, but im sure nitram will know 
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:34 AM |
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You can do this, but I think that it will not be enough for a welder.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:40 AM |
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Ahhh, cool, good point!!
I can stick in an elcb after the main junction box in the garage pretty easily, just the job.
Next question. I did the wiring for the garage before the regs changed regarding doing your own wiring. If I now get an electrician in to install the
tails to the new non-elcb breaker unit for the garage, will he then not be able to sign it off if he finds anything else not strictly to regs, seeing
as the bit he is connecting will be feeding the existing garage wiring??????? Surely these new regs fall down a bit there???
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:43 AM |
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He will need to check what he is connecting up to.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:43 AM |
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Once had a similar problem with a steam cleaner so not knowing anything about them I took it to an engineering company that sell/service them . After
a wek or so they phoned to tell me they could find nothing wrong with it so collected it and set it up to use. Same problem ! in the end I used a
length of cable with a three pin plug and started to isolate each electrical component and found main motor to be causing problem . Took it out and
thought I would have a look inside . After undoing the retaining bolts had to mop up workshop floor because of the water that had been inside motor .
Could be you have a similar problem?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nitram38
He will need to check what he is connecting up to.
Right, in terms of electrical connections etc I think I am fine, the bit I am unsure of is that the run out to the garage is 50 amp twin and earth
cable, run along the side of the house, but not in conduit. It then goes down the side of the house and into PVC conduit underground to the garage,
where it emerges and then is routed without conduit again up to the junction box(s).................
is this ok or (and I pray the answer is no!!!!!! ) do I need armoured cable.
50 amp armoured cable is not cheap!!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:52 AM |
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As long as the cable is protected by conduit in the ground, then it is fine. It is ok surface inside the building.
The cable should be protected along the house wall as it will suffer UV or mechanical damage.
You can buy capping to cover this, although it will look a bit ugly, it is locost!
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:55 AM |
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Ah, good, that's less work then!
Is that protected in conduit underground, protected in conduit where it runs outside the building, or protected everywhere?
I'm guessing not the latter as its not all run in conduit in a house.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 08:57 AM |
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I have edited my post........re-read
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 09:06 AM |
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Ah cheers!!
Thanks very much for all your help! I'll get the cable outside protected, that's not a big job and I new I should have done it at the time
but it was one of those rush jobs!!
I'll get a new mini-consumer unit put in the house, add another in the garage for the sockets with an RCD in it (and connect that one in) then
get an electrician out to add the tails in to the new unit in the house.
Out of interest, how are the new regs regarding doing your own wiring policed?? Not that I am considering breaking the law, but how is the date of
installation proved? I built my garage in 2001, before the regs changed, and did my own wiring, but now I can't. If I change the wiring, how
will somebody know????
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 09:18 AM |
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Basically, the only way you can be found out is if you are grassed by someone, or you have had to get planning permission for a building or at the
very worst, a health and safety enquiry after an accident.
Other than dates on new equipment, they will have no real way of telling.
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 09:21 AM |
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must stop posting and let you get on with work, but last question, is the wiring looked at in building regs inspection?
I built my garage on a building notice, and the inspector did a final inspection which was post-wiring up, but I don't really recall him
inspecting it? Think he did give it a glance over but that's all.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 09:25 AM |
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Building regs are different.
Unless you actually test an installation, you do not have any idea as to it's true condition.
A visual inspection only goes so far towards this.
The building inspector only does a visual inspection.
I am not at work this week. I am just on the internet collecting more ideas for my next R1 powered project!
[Edited on 8/11/2006 by nitram38]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 09:35 AM |
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ok, very last question, just ordering the bits I need.
Do I need a better IP rating on the consumer unit in the garage or is a normal household type one fine?
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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nitram38
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| posted on 8/11/06 at 10:04 AM |
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No problem with the IP rating, but opt for a plastic enclosure rather than a metal one.
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