CraigJ
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 01:09 PM |
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Out off interest
Im thinking of building some locost chassis's to order, later on this year also doing brackets and panels ect for locosts and was wondering if
there is any interest? Prices will be very competitive and options of powder coating, galvanizing ect will be available.
Im a laser profiler/welder/fabricator by trade so the items will be done to a high standard and tested before any will be sold.
Only gauging interest at the minute and i will register as a trader if i get enough good feedback.
Cheers Craig.
[Edited on 17/2/07 by CraigJ]
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UncleFista
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 01:24 PM |
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I'd imagine there'd be more interest in the new chassis, (Haynes se7en) based around the Sierra as a donor TBH.
Tony Bond / UncleFista
Love is like a snowmobile, speeding across the frozen tundra.
Which suddenly flips, pinning you underneath.
At night the ice-weasels come...
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CraigJ
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 01:25 PM |
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sorry lol thats the one i meant.
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 02:32 PM |
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good idea but the problem is im not sure how many people build locost chassis to the book.
How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?
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chrisg
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 04:30 PM |
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I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Myself and Martin Keenan own the design rights to the chassis, the book specifically prohibits construction for commercial purposes, and Haynes are
ready to protect those rights in law.
Chris
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oliwb
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 05:30 PM |
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So you wont be able to buy a locost chassis anymore then.....that seems utterly ridiculous. Oli.
If your not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room!
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chrisg
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 06:31 PM |
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This doesn't affect Locost chassis in any way.
MK Engineering will be selling Haynes Roadster chassis, for those who don't wish to make their own, the design remains our intellectural
property.
Chris
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CraigJ
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| posted on 17/2/07 at 06:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Myself and Martin Keenan own the design rights to the chassis, the book specifically prohibits construction for commercial purposes, and Haynes are
ready to protect those rights in law.
Chris
Thanks for letting me know that, could have got myself into a bit of trouble there. Ive yet to acctually read the new book just waiting for it to
arrive.
Still considering doing a chassis though but will have to design my own instead so it will take a while longer before any are available. Im already in
the middle of designing a mid engined one but puting a lot of time into research at the minute on the suspension.
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Keith Weiland
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| posted on 3/3/07 at 09:01 PM |
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Which IP right covers it?
quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
This doesn't affect Locost chassis in any way.
MK Engineering will be selling Haynes Roadster chassis, for those who don't wish to make their own, the design remains our intellectural
property.
Chris
I hope I am wrong but you might want to check what IP rights you actually have as none of the UK IP catgories really seem to cover the chassis.
Copyright
Copyright would not prohibit people building the chassis and selling it, it would only prohibit them copying the schematics. You cannot copyright
ideas, procedures, processes, systems, methods of operation, concepts, principles, or discoveries.
Trademark
Trade Marks protect signs that can distinguish the goods and services of one trader from those of another so this doesn't cover it either
Patent
A patentable item must be new and have an inventive step that is not obvious to someone with knowledge and experience in the subject. I think you
would be hard pressed to prove this chassis design meets these criteria.
Design Rights
This seems to be what you are claiming IP on but with design rights the design must differ from existing designs in the marketplace by more than just
immaterial
details and must create a different overall impression on someone who is familiar with the relevant design field. I think its fair to say that this
would exclude a chassis which for all intents and purposes is the same a the locost except for "immaterial details".
Anyway good luck with the book, I have my copy ordered and look forward to reading it. I might even use it as a basis for my car but not if it means I
can't sell it if I want to.
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procomp
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| posted on 3/3/07 at 09:20 PM |
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Hi all of the points above are what haynes used when westfield try to sue ron backed by haynes.
And haynes won.
cheers matt
[Edited on 3/3/07 by procomp]
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 3/3/07 at 10:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Myself and Martin Keenan own the design rights to the chassis, the book specifically prohibits construction for commercial purposes, and Haynes are
ready to protect those rights in law.
Chris
Hmm. I guess the car built in the book is not the one on the cover, I could swear someone "designed" a car that looked like that
before...... No where did I see it....
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bebot
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 09:36 AM |
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The way i see it, MK are the only ones allowed to sell you parts if you don't feel confident enough in making them yourself.
I thought single source supply was something Trading Standards took a very dim view of.
Even car giants Ford, for example cant enforce it, thats why you can by pattern parts to fit your car.
Hey even our local school has had a letter from trading standards saying that it is investigating schools that specify where you buy school unifoms
from, you know, like buying a blazer form this shop only.
Apparently it's about fair trading, and allowing the consumer to have a choice.
Be interesting to see waht happens if other people start making "New Book" parts.
Just my 10p worth.
Ta
[Edited on 4/3/07 by bebot]
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wilkingj
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 01:17 PM |
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So what happens if I get a mate to help me build it cos I cant weld up to the right standard. He is a trained Welder and can do the job correctly. I
buy all the steel, he helps me cut and weld it up. He's a good mate, so If I bung him some money for a drink or three for helping out.
Would that be incorrect. (I wont use the word illegal) in the sense / terms of the above discussion.
Surely Commercial Use is when someone makes a product and puts it on the market.
How does it go when you get someone who is NOT running a buisness to make something and then you bung him a few quid.
Thats like buying his skills not the chassis.
Oh Well.. the discussion is interesting. Its not really relavent to me. The new chassis is wider... but still not wide enough for me.
Yes.... I'm Viento Man
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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bebot
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 01:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
So what happens if I get a mate to help me build it cos I cant weld up to the right standard. He is a trained Welder and can do the job correctly. I
buy all the steel, he helps me cut and weld it up. He's a good mate, so If I bung him some money for a drink or three for helping out.
Would that be incorrect. (I wont use the word illegal) in the sense / terms of the above discussion.
Surely Commercial Use is when someone makes a product and puts it on the market.
How does it go when you get someone who is NOT running a buisness to make something and then you bung him a few quid.
Thats like buying his skills not the chassis.
Oh Well.. the discussion is interesting. Its not really relavent to me. The new chassis is wider... but still not wide enough for me.
Yes.... I'm Viento Man
No I don't think that's a problem, the way i see it is that you can use the book to build yourself a chassis/car, but if you decide to
make parts for other people then Haynes will be having a chat with you.
To me it seems like the whole locost industry that has been built up around the orignal book wont be allowed to happen with this book.
But, yes, a good topic/debate, with no mention of BEC v CEC, doh!!!
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RK
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 04:36 PM |
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It is like music, I guess: you used to be able to copy whatever you wanted, and at least in Canada, you paid more for blank cassettes to cover the
"lost revenue" the record companies claimed they would lose. The resulting material could only be used by you and never sold. And like
music, everybody is ripping off the original, much like Keef and Chuck Berry.
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Keith Weiland
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 04:46 PM |
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Oh well..
I really don't care if they actually have IP rights or just think they do, because If I decide to use their plans it will only be for my own car
but I certainly won't be buying the chassis from MK now.
I just find it distasteful that they have basically taken the work of a lot of different people and used bits and pieces of different chassis, change
a few dimensions and try to pass it off as if it's their own Intellectual Property in some way.
Nothing they have done is unique that I can see, its just a rehash of everything we have seen before. Making a section longer here or shorter there
does not constitute originality.
Just saying so in a book doesn't make it true, I would like to see either the Design Right or Patent documentation.
I mean what prevents me from doing the same thing. I could write a manual, create a chassis design which I change the dimensions of the tubing
slightly, add a piece here and there or whatever and release the whole thing under a creative commons license so anyone can use it.
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 04:52 PM |
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without having read the book yet, how can you know how much they have modified the design? Maybe there are novel additions. There certainly is space
for improvements in the existing designs.
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Keith Weiland
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 05:05 PM |
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your pulling the wrong guy there Keith, Mk only built the car for haynes, Chris Gibbs was the designer and the author of the book, if you feel that
way about the new book then maybe you should take it up with him.
Chris
I'm not sure what you mean, Chrisg wrote
quote:
Myself and Martin Keenan own the design rights to the chassis, the book specifically prohibits construction for commercial purposes, and Haynes
are ready to protect those rights in law.
that seems to mean both Chris and Martin are claiming the rights. Am I mistaken in thinking Martin Keenan is MK?
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Keith Weiland
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 05:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
without having read the book yet, how can you know how much they have modified the design? Maybe there are novel additions. There certainly is space
for improvements in the existing designs.
I can't know exactly but the pictures of the chassis sure don't look
very different. and to claim Intellectual property requires much more than just novel additions or improvements.
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Keith Weiland
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 05:21 PM |
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quote:
this post by Haynes themself may clear it up for you.
I had read that post already but it doesn't change the fact that chrisg said that the design right is owned by both himself and Martin Keenan of
MK.
Anyway it doesn't matter. I just find the whole thing distasteful.
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sept
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| posted on 4/3/07 at 07:41 PM |
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This was on the website off Mk Developments
"Following on From the previous success with the Mk Indy, we are now back in the 2 seater market with the new Haynes Roadster"
So they are now in competition with the Indy
[Edited on 4/3/07 by sept]
sept is seven in french
Mischa
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blueshift
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| posted on 5/3/07 at 09:17 AM |
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I know what you mean by "distateful" I think.
It appears to me that they are clearly riding on Lotus, Westfield and Ron's coat-tails, they will sell plenty of the books, but then to threaten
to sue people who start up making parts or whatever..
Takes the wee in my opinion. If it was an out-and-out new design then that would be a slightly different matter.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 5/3/07 at 09:47 AM |
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They'd have a lot of trouble enforcing that in court.
A search through the archives on this site would show pretty much every concievable variation on the '7' style theme possible. Wishbones,
chassis, body variations. They're all here somewhere.
Any copying is on the side of the Haynes thing. As has been said, an amalgum of many design options that comes under the heading' Already
done' or 'Previously Done.'
The Threat is just hot air and chest beating.
If you can prove a change of 5% or more, (that's one part in 20!) then they have 'no case', as the court would say, anyway. A few mm
here and there, and you're free and clear.
Cheers,
Syd.
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ironside
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| posted on 5/3/07 at 01:24 PM |
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Ron's book (in my 2nd edition copy) has the same "not for commercial use" warning in it.
From memory, it suggests that the book plans/procedure is licensed to you for a particular use (ie a home build and not commercial.) A bit like a
software license.
I don't have the exact wording to hand, but have a look if you have your own copy nearby - what is the difference between that and the new
Haynes book?
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ironside
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 12:24 AM |
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Yeh, here it is on the page before the contents page in bold:
"The plans, drawings and information in this book, and the name Locost, are for private use only and not for commericial enterprise."
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