Which is the best engine for all of those three factors above, power wise I am looking for about 150-160bhp, with the poss of going 2 about 200 in a couple of years time.

Btw it has 2 be a car engine and 2 litre or less in size, also if it used an ecu, what are they like,

Thanks 4 ur time

Philip Moreton

Sounds like a spec for a Zetec car but the Vauxhall guys will tell you that will work also.

Another way round would be start with an
xr3 CVH then go Zetec after SVA.

[Edited on 31/3/04 by britishtrident]

The Zetec would be my choice.
They are appearing in breakers more often and prices are comming down all the time.There are loads of tune up parts available and they are destined to be the Pinto of the future.

You will need to look at a aftermarket ECU if you want to up the BHP later otherwise you will be limited if using Ford ECU/injection. For 200BHP you will be looking at head and cam mods for zetec, most tuners say cams alone are a waste as the power increase is not that great without porting.

thansk 4 ur answers so far but 2 more questions

1) is it worth converting it 2 carbs
2) how much will it cost 4 150bhp incluing the engine, and then how much more 2 go 2 the 200?

thanks 4 ur time

Philip Moreton

[Edited on 31/3/2004 by I love speed :-P]

First thing is do you really want so much power ? A locost is a very light car a little power goes a long way once you get over about 110 bhp the law of dimishing returns applies especially as the Seven hs the aerodynamic of brickwall.

150 bhp is relatively easy with the 1.8 Zetec just change the induction --- however the Zetec is a expensive engine to install in a kit car, most of the companies selling the bolt on bits you need will try to take you to the cleaners. I strongly suspect a 150 bhp Zetec will cost 3 grand by the time you get it fitted., going beyond towards 200 bhp is really just a matter of cams and head --- beyond that forget the Zetec.

Another alternative is the Toyota see RAW enginnering http://www.rawengineering.co.uk/RAW_engines.html

didnt I read sumat on here onece or twice that the zetec need several hundred quid to get it to work - ie ignition, bellhousing, carbs, blah de blah. Its not a cheap choice then.........


Over 2 litres - a rover V8 would fit the bill and so would a cologne if you can get it to fit - 150hp as std and a little over 200 as std if you get a cossie version.

atb

steve

The mx5 (miata) seems to be a popular chioce over here.It's a well built 1600 to 2000cc DOHC.they are everywhere,really cheap for what you get(a complete donor).Even daddy Ron just released a Miata based kit. If the tuner mags can be believed they can make an honest 200bhp for relatively cheap.(1600cc)
They are rumored to be very light also.

Just a thought, Fletch.

go for the nissan 200sx engine - ca18det
check out:

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=10256

rich

Because of this thread I started lookin into Toyota units - very tempting

check yahoo groups - the aussies use the 4age a lot.

As soon as you move onto any car without a distributor you are looking at either getting the donor ECU to work or get a aftermarket one, the good news is if you want to change to a different engine in a few years just get the ECU remapped. Work out the figures for most engines and I suspect they will all be almost the same for 150BHP. Good news with zetec/toyota/Vx engines are the most easy to source and reliable enough not to need a rebuild. Try dragging a RV8 out of the donor and not have to spend £££ getting it back to good health, tails of woe about knackered cams/cranks at 80000 miles common.

Zetec,
With the money you'd save not having to fart about with fancy ECU's and then building a suitable wiring loom, you could have a Rover V8 pumping out 200BHP+ without breaking a sweat.

I think you'll find that they are also a tad more reliable than you are suggesting, provided they have been well maintained of course. I got my RV8 from an original series 1 SD1 with just over 90k miles on the clock and it runs just fine. I should have it running in the next few weeks once I build a suitable silencer system so you'll be able to hear it for yourself.

In any event I think a limit of 2 litres was included in the question, presumably for insurance purposes so I guess it's academic. I don't honestly see why an RV8 3.5 litre should be any more expensive to insure than a Zetec (or other sub 2 litre engines) as they all put out similar horsepower. The big advantage of the RV8 is that you sound like your going fast even sitting in the garage listening to the burble...

Cheers,
Craig.

Not sure what the farting about bit is...no needles or chokes to change. I've had more hassle with setting up twin carbs than I will ever have with injection. The main reason I went for a zetec is that there are 20 sitting in every scrap yard so if I do blow mine up, and I do try, a couple of hundred quid and 4hrs with the spanners and another one is in and running. Can't imagine RV8 kicking out 200bhp without at least heads and cams being changed and upgrade to standard SU, Vitesse got near it but was that running a fancy fart about ECU. You are right about sound, can't be beat. Each to their own I guess.

Zetec,
200BHP is easily achievable with a 3.5 litre RV8 and it doesn't require anything major done with heads or cams. There are several routes which you can follow depending on which engine you start off with. Ideally you should start with the Vitesse engine and the first thing you would probably do is throw away (or sell) the "fancy fart about ECU" and replace it with a Holley or ideally a Weber 500 carb. That coupled with a pair of K&N filters and a decent exhaust system would be putting out 210-220BHP as the Vitesse starts out with 193BHP. If you "only" want 200BHP then just fit a pair of K&N's and you are there! The standard ECU will cope with this without any significant changes. Given that you will probably have a more freely flowing exhaust on a side-pipe equipped "seven" anyway then you will probably get a few BHP more than the 193BHP baseline so I wouldn't be surprised if 205BHP was produced with K&N's and side-pipes. If you also have custom headers then another 10-15BHP could be released.

If you start off with a non-Vitesse RV8 then you have a baseline of 155BHP. The best route would be to find a pair of standard Vitesse heads and buy a set of standard (or oversize if rebore required) Vitesse pistons which run 9.75:1 compression ratio. The heads and pistons are the main reason the Vitesse has more power than the standard SD1, it has nothing much to do with the fuel injection system. EFI has more to do with fuel economy and emissions as most people are aware. Carbs are good!

As for changing needles and jets, this is not a problem if you follow a good tuning manual. It just requires a methodical approach. However, if you can't be bothered with this then just go for a "standard" setup. There are many people out there running Vitesse heads with Vitesse pistons and K&N's, freeflowing exhaust, bigger headers etc etc and they will be able to tell you what jets or needles they are using based on dyno testing and setup. You could also get it set up on a dyno yourself which is the best option and this is not as expensive as many people think. Just find a garage who are familiar with your engine and carb which isn't a problem for an RV8 and either a Holley 390 or Weber 500.

You can change cam (note singular) if you like and this will give you perhaps another 10-20BHP for a mild road cam but I'd only do this if the existing cam was worn badly and/or I was stripping the valve gear for some other reason.

So you could have between 200 and 250BHP for anything from the cost of a pair of K&N filters upwards depending on where you start and you wouldn't have to worry about "blowing it up" as it will still be a big lazy V8 and will still have the same unstressed characteristics and bags of smooth torque.

Cheers,
Craig.

Bike engine!

R1 and GSXR1000 have 150bhp standard.

Take it to TTS and they will easily get it to 200bhp, or stick on a turbo and get 350bhp.

R1 engines can be had for £800 - £1000 and Gixer 1000 a little less.

Adam

I don’t see your need to justify the rv8. Zetec just answered the question that was asked!

[Edited on 2/4/04 by Jamesfear]

Hi,
Didn't the author of this thread mention something about it being a car engine and less than 2 litres displacement...

Here we are talking about 3.5 litre V8's and bike engines!

Cheers,
Craig.

Jamesfear,
Zetec made comments which I think were misleading and in some cases incorrect so I in turn answered them back! This is a forum after all...

As I have since said, this is all missing the point of the original author so you'll be pleased to hear that I won't be posting any further comments about the RV8. I don't think it was me who mentioned the RV8 in the first place anyway.

Cheers,
Craig.

I did not mean to get on your back m8.
There just is no point in justifying the rv8 because it’s just the tops.
I will be using a zetec in my 7 but I have had lots of v8 land rovers in the past.
Why do you think the army use the landy v8!

hay i dont mind, as long as some1 else use the info it is worth it, so ppl seam 2 think zetec, so how much is it going 2 cost me 4 everything for 150bhp?


p.s. thanks 4 the info so far

Phil

If you use the MegaSquirt Electronic Fuel Injection Computer By Bowling & Grippo keep all the ford injection and get and new intake manifold made up (mine will be the same as the one luego have) you are looking at about £200 to £350 to get the zetec up and running in a seven

http://www.raceline.co.uk/zetecframes.htm

for zetec but remeber it can be done cheaper

Jamesfear,
No probs.
As you can tell I am fiercely protective of the RV8 as it was the engine which my Dad had in two SD1's which he owned during most of my childhood. I love its simplicity and of course the noise!

Despite working for Lucas Automotive Electronics as a design engineer after I graduated, where I worked on the design of the Lucas variant of common rail diesel ECU's, I subscribe to the "simpler is better" approach for the Seven type car. Stick to carbs and simple ignition (no points mind) and you won't go far wrong. If you stick to older engines (pre 1995 IIRC??) then you don't need to worry about catalytic converters and thus you don't need electronic fuel injection.

Anyway, that's me getting off my soapbox now to make space for someone else...

Cheers,
Craig.

Without question the Vauxhall XE 16v wins all round here. it has more potential (for the same money) than a Zetec as the Vauxhall valves are bigger and further from the chamber walls. A decent engine which doesn't need a rebuild can be had for £450 and this will put out 150 hp on the standard injection that it comes with. If you don't beleive me about the price, see what Cavalier GSI 16v and astra 16v's are going for!! Just buy a good running car, take what you need and break the rest for spares to get some of the money back. I have used these engines in several cars (Pug 205 RWD, Opel Manta, Grasstrack special), and will shortly be putting one in a locost.

Gearbox-wise, you can either get an adaptor bellhousing (£70 s/h) to use the Ford Type 9 'box or you can use the standard 1800cc Opel Manta gearbox which bolts straight on. (use Astra/Cav pressure plate and 1800 Manta friction Plate) The manta 1800 will also donate a nice alloy lowline big wing sump which they had as standard! (you can pick up an 1800 Manta for £50 if you again want to buy a whole car which is usually cheaper!!)

For upgrading the Vauxhall is by far and away ahead of the Zetec unless you are building a full-race engine with big valves, in which case the Zetec's samll ones are of less significance. I run an internally standard Vauxhall 16v XE 2.0 engine from a Cavalier GSI 16v in my grasstrack racer. I use MBE engine management and throttle bodies and the car gave 176hp @ wheels (204 hp @ flywheel) on John Wilcox Rolling Road in Hinckley. I don't think the Zetec will do that!

Sorry, another post, but I would dispute the claim further up that you can get a Zetec up and running in a Locost for £200! If you got given a perfect engine then maybe, but what about sump? Megasquirt still costs about £50 even if you do it dead cheap and have all the know-how. £100 Zetecs need rebuilding!! I have seen enough broken ones, which is why I use the Vauxhall XE. Yes you can get a knackered Mondeo etc for £50 or less but the engine will be knackered too!

Realistically (and no-doubt someone will have done it for less but they know somebody that gave them the bits!) you need to spend £500 min to get a reliable 150hp engine into a locost, plus then you need a gearbox!! You can do it for less but it will probably not be reliable.

If you plumped for a standard 1800cc vauxhall OHC (8v - J-series)) engine from a Manta and the gearbox that comes with it then you can have 100hp for about £50. It is all complete and ready to go, straight out of the Manta.

I have driven most Rovers that had the 3.5 v8 and my work vehicle used to be a V8 Land-Rover 90.
The Rover V8 isn't a performance engine -- only in Vitesse form did the 3.5 version have any real grunt; just to put things in perpective 200 bhp is a quite lot for Rover 3.5 V8 but is less than 60bhp per litre. Rovers own old 2 litre turbo unit produces 192 as STANDARD screw the waste gate down just a little and you have 200 bhp.

NS Dev,

I went the Vauxhall 8v 18E engine and box from a Carlton, as you quite rightly point out, whole lot for £50. Engine on standard injection produces 115bhp.

Shortening the sump was easy (it is steel), a handful of wires (mainly power), easy as the 18E has no true ECU just an ignition unit.

The gearbox that come withit will allow any of the Vaxuhall engines to bolt on and the shift lever was just connected with a 3/4" tube so was easy to put where I wanted.

115bhp(standard), drop in engine and gearbox unit (almost) for £50, with only 90k on it. Cant be bad

that price was not with the engine just the price of the parts.
I have a brand new engine that i got cheep direct from ford. You just have to look around to find them. Its one of the 1.8 130bhp out of an rs2000 so no need for a new sump and will put out 150bhp just with the new plenum chamber just like the one dutchsuperseven uses and the right maping with the ecu.

I am not saying the zetec is the best engine just one of the ones you can use.
Go have a look around the scap yard and see what they have and you may just pick up a very good engine at a good price. Remember there is no money in scap cars anymore and they just cush them with the engine in, so will sale very cheep.

But after all this tolk if I had not picked up this zetec engine for the price i got it for in the end i would have gone for a vx that i know of in a scap yard i know of.

both very good engines and then you have the 4age as well as lots more.

just take your pick in the end.

After all that I must go with the bike engine idea as poss best suited to car. We all have idea of the engine to fit but spend some time thinking about laws of physics and how cars go round bends and light is right! No need to go with blade/busa power, Hondas nice big 1300 V4 on carbs would make a very good car unit, but thats going too far off track.

I'm off for a drive in my nice simple MK.

Yes, I would agree light is best! I would like to use bike power but a few things put me off, the main one being cost compared to the engines that I already have in the garage! The reliability of the bike stuff I know is good but spares are not at all cheap!
One of the major manufacturers, can'r remember who, has stopped doing the bike engine thing due to worries about warrany claims on the gearboxes. Anyhow, this isn't a reason for not using one I know, and if I had one in the garage now I would use it, but I don't whereas I do have a couple of Vauxhall XE's!!

Re. the 1800 vauxhall engine, you don't need to mod the steel Carlton sump if you can find a Manta 1800 sump, these are already lowline, winged ally jobs as standard (it's actually now cheaper to buy a complete car than the sump on it's own though!!)

quote:

---

Originally posted by britishtrident
The Rover V8 isn't a performance engine -- only in Vitesse form did the 3.5 version have any real grunt;

---

While it is plain to see you have a great deal of respect for the RV8 you must admit in the real world the chance of getting hold of a Vitesse or for that any other engine from a pre "95 SD1/Land Rover or any other BL vehicle which can just be fitted without at least some form of reconditioning is slim. BL/Rover have never been known for their quality (talking from experience) and most of the larger V8 tuning companies do suggest that anything with over 80,000 miles on the clock will be in need of some work. Add to that the cost of a good gearbox and flywheel/clutch, twin exhaust and big carb the cost can soo get beyond the few hundred quid the engine may have cost to start. As has been said before the cost of putting any engine of 150 BHP into a kit will not be that different, and the sums must get even closer when going to 200BHP. As you say the RV8 has been used to great effect in the past but once you quote figures of 4.4ltr you might as well save the tuning cost and get a modern yank all ali 5.0 ltr putting out 350BHP in a standard road car and with a life span of several 100,000 miles. It must be said that the engine is a classic but things have moved on and it is no longer the only option or best design. As far as keeping things simple not having a distributor/points or carb to tune every service is fine by me. I suspect most modern engines will happily run for well over 150,000 miles before any major work is required, this is due to better machining and better fueling. Don't knock modern kit till you've tried it.

Getting back on topic......

I would say the VX engine is alot cheaper to install than the Zetec. You can use a dizzy from an old carbed (1.8?) cav, I got one for £10! You do have to buy a bellhousing, but thats ~£150 unless you fancy making an adaptor plate.

Performance wise I think the 2L 16V is ~150bhp as standard, this would prob go to ~180bhp with a free flowing exhaust and set of carbs.

Or, the engine I'm using. 2L 8V from the Cav SRI 130. 130 bhp as standard, I'm hoping for a little under 150 bhp with free flowing exhaust, and twin 45's, with un otherwise std engine. Oh and bags and bags of torque! And the best bit, under rateted and thus cheap as chips! Plus engine mounts and belhousing will fit the 16V lump for an upgrade later.

Cheers

[Edited on 3/4/04 by Northy]

Zetec,
Some of what you say is true but the engines are easier to get hold of than you seem to realise and there are loads of second hand tuning bits flying around on ebay and the like and many good tuning companies who will take your cash and give you serious horsepower. Given that the engine is still in production for several manufacturers and given that most parts are interchangeable then the engine will live on for many years to come. Rover quality may not be the best, especially in recent years but the engine is not a Rover design remember so I'm not sure what relevance this has. Ford have had some seriously dodgy quality too, especially in the 70's and 80's... You mention using an American large capacity engine once the capacity gets up to the 4 liitre+ mark but I think you will be very hard stretched to find another V8 as light as the Rover engine capable of delivering up to 5.6 litre capacity and power and the availability of parts for the American engines will be much poorer.

You say I shouldn't knock modern technology until I've tried it but it may surprise you to hear that I have tried it on several occasions... As I said, I used to design engine controllers for Lucas. To be honest I wouldn't want to commute in anything other than a modern car where I can just jump in and turn the key but for a sports car modern engines have no character in my opinion. They have no soul any more because they do their job, in many ways, too well.

Anyway, before I burst into tears I'm off to work on my car. I'm building in my upper harness mounts and I only came in to my PC to use the program which creates fishmouths for cutting round tube.

Catch you later, (shouldn't be hard if you are driving a Zetec and I'm in my V8... ) - Only kidding!
Craig.

but please dont forget the nissan ca18det, surely this has got the best of all worlds? reliable (japanese), powerful (170bhp std), tunable (300bhp available easy on std engine) and cheap (look on sxoc.co.uk for one!)

oh yeah and its a car engine and less than 2 litre as required in original post!!

thats my 2p

good luck

rich