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Locost massive advice needed
Poorscousertommy - 7/9/11 at 11:39 AM

After being taken for a drive at the MK openday on Sat, the 'I gotta get me one of those' bug bit - hard. Three days, and I've relieved the bank manager of enough toy tokens to put together a build...

So, while I thought I was clear, am now realising just how out of my depth I am so lets start with the questions!!!

I was fully hell bent on a S2000 powered indy, however now wondering if thats an itty bit ambitious for a first build.. So, let the questions begin...

1. If the S2000 isw a bridge too far, how much power / performance do I really lose if I go to a Duratec with Bike carbs / ITBs.

2. Is the type 9 a decent box? I dont want a sloppy ol gear change like erm.. a 1985 sierra! Recon options? Driveability?

3. When looking at an Engine out of a car - what do I look for - how do I ensure that I am not buying a lemon.. Any tell tale signs, quick tests I can do?

4. Finally, if I buy a salvage S2000 from an auction for running gear, does this have any registration / insurance implications for / post IVA?

Sorry for the multiple Q's - was going to do 4 posts but luchtimes are short!

Cheers,

Mark

britishtrident - 7/9/11 at 11:49 AM

Keep it simple Sierra route single donor you can swap in a more advanced engine once it is on the road.

Re Sierra gear change much better when you rid of the rubber isolater that built into the gear lever and do a quick shift mod, also using a more modern synthetic gear oil improves the gear change no end.

RK - 7/9/11 at 11:55 AM

This is sage advice, although i don't know anything about the transmission bit. I am on a less well travelled path, and I can assure everyone, that it is fraught with issues. Doesn't seem a strong enough word though, actually.

Daddylonglegs - 7/9/11 at 11:57 AM

I agree with Britishtrident. I have just got my build to the 'driveable' stage and was pretty amazed at how quick off the mark it is for an old 2L Pinto running on a 32/36 Weber carb! I have a Zetec Silvertop and ZX9R carbs to fit at some stage, but am looking at the present configuration as a learning tool. I would think the car could quite easily bite me if I go for too-much-too-soon

I'm sure that with my bum 6" from the ground it will be quick enough for starters

Just my 2 Pence worth.

JB

jossey - 7/9/11 at 11:57 AM

s2000 or m5 engine mmmmmm

JimSpencer - 7/9/11 at 12:05 PM

Hi

Ok first off I'll take a brave pill and post the obvious Q:-

Are you sure you want to build one? - There's always a few for sale, built, and most importantly registered that you could buy and then stip back to a pile of bits and modify to your hearts content.

Power is always secondary to handling on a lightweight 'seven' so the answer to your first question, is 'depends on if you've set it up right' really - but in reality on the road 'Not a Lot' would suffice - however compared to say a bog standard 1.6 xflow then 'Huge' would be more approriate if it were near a track!

Type 9 is a good box, but suffers from a rubbish gear lever, ensure you fit a Quaife gearlever (or other top draw lever assy) and an uprated saddle clip and the change will be like a rifle action (Unbelievable defference these two bits make).
But if you're going to fit a very revvy engine then you'll want an uprated version of it (std ones don't seem to like lots of revs) from either BGH or Quaife or similar and then go for an 'long first close ratio' type.

Over to somebody else for the next two bits as got number three wrong myself in the past and dunno about 4

TimC - 7/9/11 at 12:22 PM

In your situation I'd have a good look at buying a turbo or SC MX-5 and going for a MX-5 based kit (MNR, Westy etc; I don't think MK offer one.)

liam.mccaffrey - 7/9/11 at 12:30 PM

if you are at all squeamish mechanically i'd go for a single donor build with an mx5, as said always the option of fittings more advanced kit when you're more confident working on the car.

I went about things the wrong way, I'm doing everything custom and so have very little to go off. However, I'm not sure whether I would do things differently if I had my time over

[Edited on 7/9/11 by liam.mccaffrey]

Davegtst - 7/9/11 at 12:30 PM

How much is your budget? I can almost gaurantee you will go over it. If i was to do it again i think i would buy one that was already built, strip and rebuild it to my spec. It would save so much hassle and should be alot cheaper as these cars depreciate very quickly.

mcerd1 - 7/9/11 at 12:35 PM

to answer some of your questions a little better you'll need to tell us what sort of driving your going to be doing most of the time ? - road, track, race......



quote:
Originally posted by JimSpencerType 9 is a good box, but suffers from a rubbish gear lever, ensure you fit a Quaife gearlever (or other top draw lever assy) and an uprated saddle clip and the change will be like a rifle action (Unbelievable defference these two bits make).
But if you're going to fit a very revvy engine then you'll want an uprated version of it (std ones don't seem to like lots of revs) from either BGH or Quaife or similar and then go for an 'long first close ratio' type.

^^the bog standard type 9 isn't the strongest box (good for 145bhp/145ft.lbs and normal revs) but its got a lot of options and upgrades avalible:

bellhousings to suit lots of aplications - off the top of my head nearly all the ford 4cyl, the ford 2.8/2.9 V6's, vauxhall XE, duratec, toyota 4age and K-series (there might even be one for the VAG engines)

uprated gearkits are avalible from BGH, Quaife, TranX..... - so loads of ratio's to pick from if you splash out on an uprated box
the basic BGH HD box will sort out the 1st gear ratio and handle 240bhp/200ft.lbs
http://bghgeartech.co.uk/html/bgh_home.html

and as above the sloopy gearchange is easily sorted




you could use a stronger box like a cossie T5 one, but your much more limited of the bellhousings and ratio's avalible...

or if your looking at duratecs I beleve the 6spd MX5 box is a strait fit (although its a bit bigger so I don't know how well it'll fit in the chassis)


[Edited on 7/9/2011 by mcerd1]

norfolkluego - 7/9/11 at 12:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Davegtst
How much is your budget? I can almost gaurantee you will go over it. If i was to do it again i think i would buy one that was already built, strip and rebuild it to my spec. It would save so much hassle and should be alot cheaper as these cars depreciate very quickly.


Really? I would say after the instant hit of depreciation on the build cost (i.e. it's never worth what it cost to put it together) the prices are very stable

franky - 7/9/11 at 01:16 PM

By the time you've put ITB's on a duratec, bought an ECU and had it all mapped you'll be into ££££'s anyway ontop of the cost of a motor. Build the exact car you want from the start, it'll work out cheaper in the long run.

I'd look for something you can run on a standard ecu. It'll always drive better and give better MPG.

Good choices would be

Saab
s2000
bmw m3 or 328(very very cost effective)
Sr20det or just the N/A version.

fesycresy - 7/9/11 at 01:39 PM

How about a red top?

Or go BEC, blade, R1, busa or ZX 14?

TimC - 7/9/11 at 01:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fesycresy
How about a red top?

Or go BEC, blade, R1, busa or ZX 14?


Are you asking the OP or yourself Mate?

Davegtst - 7/9/11 at 02:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by norfolkluego
quote:
Originally posted by Davegtst
How much is your budget? I can almost gaurantee you will go over it. If i was to do it again i think i would buy one that was already built, strip and rebuild it to my spec. It would save so much hassle and should be alot cheaper as these cars depreciate very quickly.


Really? I would say after the instant hit of depreciation on the build cost (i.e. it's never worth what it cost to put it together) the prices are very stable


Thats what i meant, as soon as it's built it is worth quite alot less than the sum of it's parts. I also seems alot of builders don't keep them too long and do very few miles in them before they sell as for them the fun is in the building.

wilkingj - 7/9/11 at 04:00 PM

Hmmm Built mine, it tok 18 months, and it cost me just over £8k for my V8 Viento.
I would hope to realise at least £5-6k today.
Its been built 5 years on the road.
Its done 6K miles.

Yes, not a lot of use, and IMHO not a huge depreciation.

It depends if you get bored quickly. The option is to change the car, or modiy the one you have. Hence short term ownership AND long term ownership for certain types of people.

Think, 10 times, measure 10 times, then cut / spend once... Its the LCB motto!

Main thing is you have found this forum, which is one of the best for kit car builders.
Have fun and enjoy.

Poorscousertommy - 7/9/11 at 04:09 PM

Cheers - budget pf 8K so still hope!!

For earlier posters, I'm looking to do 70% road, hence CEC. Want it to be blistering on track though (for the 4/5 times I plan to go per year) and so S2K etc...

Any advice on the last two questions?? ref buying an 'ebay' engine or write off donor?

Cheers,

Davegtst - 7/9/11 at 04:41 PM

Less the engine my Indy R kit came to around 6K. Add the engine, gearbox, running gear, seats, brakes, instruments, IVA etc etc. I know people manage to build these things cheap but i don't think you would be able to do an s2000 indy r for under 8K.

britishtrident - 7/9/11 at 05:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Poorscousertommy
Cheers - budget pf 8K so still hope!!

For earlier posters, I'm looking to do 70% road, hence CEC. Want it to be blistering on track though (for the 4/5 times I plan to go per year) and so S2K etc...

Any advice on the last two questions?? ref buying an 'ebay' engine or write off donor?

Cheers,


Think it through -----
If you have an 8k budget sitting in lump just go out and buy a complete running registered Westie or MK, you find loads on ebay just beware ebay sellers who try to pass off Robin Hoods, Locusts, Duttons and various questionable DIY jobs s Lotus/Westfield/MK/MNR or other well regarded brands.
Find the right car at the right price and pocket the change.



1991 CATERHAM 7 SUPER SPRINT | eBay

[Edited on 7/9/11 by britishtrident]

tompat3463 - 7/9/11 at 05:30 PM

why not a well geared Bike engine install ? like a blade engine which U can find very cheap....I got a bare blade engine off ebay for £30....I've spent £100 on other bits for it but now its ready to go in my new Indy when she is finished.

a higher ratio sierra diff will give more road driveability than ir 3.6 ( i think )

Bike engines are supidly simple and I wuld reccoment to anyone for a first time builder

edspurrier - 7/9/11 at 05:31 PM

Stick to putting the engine in that the kit supplier intended, it will make life much easier. Swaps can always be done later.

I quite like the look of Road Runner's MX-5 based kit.

One of the key things to look at is how far away your supplier is - being local to pick up bits and sort problems out can ease no end of frustration.

stevegough - 7/9/11 at 06:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Poorscousertommy


2. Is the type 9 a decent box? I dont want a sloppy ol gear change like erm.. a 1985 sierra! Recon options? Driveability?

3. When looking at an Engine out of a car - what do I look for - how do I ensure that I am not buying a lemon.. Any tell tale signs, quick tests I can do?

4. Finally, if I buy a salvage S2000 from an auction for running gear, does this have any registration / insurance implications for / post IVA?




A couple of comments for you:

A2: I have a type 9 from a 93 sierra, apart from cutting the gearlever down to size, I haven't modded it at all - its never skipped a beat, and I am putting 150bhp (theoretically) through it. I dare say there are better 'boxes, but I've no complaints.

A3: I have bought 2 engines - one through ebay - and the other off another LCB - you have to take a lot on trust, I'm afraid, but both engines I've bought have turned out to be pretty well OK. The first I trashed through my own stupid error, and the second is still fine (when I've sorted the current issue out with it).

A3and a bit: you can go and look the engine over, take the filler cap off and look for the mayonaise (poss head gasket fail - but not always - can also be caused by condensation!) look for evidence of the 'black death' (burnt, caked on oil - sometimes with a noticeable smell). You could take the sump off and examine the bearings, if its on a stand you might even be able to do a compression test. However, your best bet is buying one that is out of a rear - end write off with low miles - read between the lines and ask questions!

A4: If you buy a salvage car, it is a good idea to get at least a copy of the V5 at the very least get a reciept which includes the engine number - DVLA like to see evidence of origin of the engine, etc. but to answer your question accurately, no - there shouldn't be any implications regarding IVA/ins./reg.

I know a few guys on here who have put the S2000 engine in their kits, but - no disrespect to you but - they aren't just starting out. Stick to MX5, sierra, or something simple as a base line, then upgrade later....



[Edited on 7/9/11 by stevegough]

Steve Hignett - 7/9/11 at 10:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by TimC
quote:
Originally posted by fesycresy
How about a red top?

Or go BEC, blade, R1, busa or ZX 14?


Are you asking the OP or yourself Mate?



LOL