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Type 9 Gearbox and 200+BHP

mikey p - 8/10/12 at 11:34 AM

Guys,

How many of you are running standard short shaft type 9's and that much power in a seven style car? non HD box.
I know they are quoted at ~150BHP/Nm but that will be in a heavier car.....

Or if you have killed one!

Cheers Mike

coozer - 8/10/12 at 11:37 AM

Of course, the lighter the car the more they can withstand.

All to do with overcoming the mass of the vehicle.

Paul Turner - 8/10/12 at 12:06 PM

The HD box is not that special, the only difference is that it uses a caged bearing at the front end of the lay assembly with a stub spiggot instead of individual needle rollers on a layshaft. The syncro's, gear material, selectors, mainshaft etc are all identical.

A carefully assembled standard box using good quality parts will withstand way more than 150 bhp in a Seven weight car. Have never seen an official Ford rating for the HD one.

Back in the early 90's I used an Escort Mk 2 box in my car in hillclimbs and sprints, the starts are known to kill boxes. The box was rated at little over 100 bhp but mine survived with 135 - 145 bhp for 4 years before a precationary rebuild, only changed the input shaft bearing, rest perfect.

Using the race type clutches where the drive is instant can help kill boxes, using a HD road type clutch certainly extends their life.

Pat_T - 8/10/12 at 12:13 PM

I am, with no issues.

Oddified - 8/10/12 at 12:50 PM

Before changing to a tranx gear kit i had a standard type 9, i did rwyb drag racing with nitrous (well over 250bhp, but road tyres and an organic clutch) and never broke it.

With road tyres, normal type clutch and a light weight car i think they're fairly bullet proof.

Ian

mcerd1 - 8/10/12 at 01:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
The HD box is not that special, the only difference is that it uses a caged bearing at the front end of the lay assembly with a stub spiggot instead of individual needle rollers on a layshaft. The syncro's, gear material, selectors, mainshaft etc are all identical.

A carefully assembled standard box using good quality parts will withstand way more than 150 bhp in a Seven weight car. Have never seen an official Ford rating for the HD one.

^^ BGH recon 145 bhp / 145 ft.lb for a std. 4 speed one and 155 / 155 for a 2.8 V6 HD one (thats with there 1st gear mod)
in such a light car most folk seem to get away with the standard box, but the 1st gear ratio is really bad so its probably worth doing that at least.

if you want more the HD BGH ones are rated all the way up to 280bhp/250ft.lb and they have a range of ratios to pick from and do HD syncro's for 3rd & 4th too - I managed to get one of the top spec ones s/h for my dax at about Ł750 off the list price, its never even been used

and the guys at bgh have been really helpful to me despite the fact I didn't even buy it from them

[Edited on 8/10/2012 by mcerd1]

[Edited on 8/10/2012 by mcerd1]

mikey p - 8/10/12 at 02:21 PM

I'm not sure exactly what type 9 mine has at the mo, but first gear seems pretty good. Need to check it out once my current engine is out and I can have a look.

Those above answers are the ones I wanted to see.
Would go straight cut but I don't want the car to be tricky/harsh to drive on the road.

Can you fit the HD syncro's in a standard box?

mcerd1 - 8/10/12 at 03:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mikey p
Those above answers are the ones I wanted to see.
Would go straight cut but I don't want the car to be tricky/harsh to drive on the road.

the BGH boxes are all helical

Paul Turner - 8/10/12 at 04:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mikey p

Can you fit the HD syncro's in a standard box?

As I said in my original post all the syncros in type 9's boxes are identical, the V6 box did not have special syncros. Quaiffe make steel HD syncros but they are of no use in a road car, they need lapping in every few thousand miles which is a strip and rebuild job.

BGH do a good job of providing excellent alternative ratios but the price is quite high now. If you speak to Steve Perks on 01527 894232 (be prepared for a long phone call) he will talk you through the science behind gearboxes. He does an excellent all syncro heavy duty close ratio box that is mostly new parts (the BGH one uses many reclaimed parts), he also does a simple 1st gear change at a budget price for 2 litre and 2.8 boxes, (the kit was Ł220), I have the 2.8 variant in mine, well worth the money (and it copes quite happily with 170bhp).

Also worth noting that not all V6 boxes are HD. The early ones (both 2WD and 4WD) used the same laygear as a 2 litre box, the later ones (again both 2WD and 4WD) had the caged bearing and stub.

djtom - 15/10/12 at 01:16 PM

I've knackered a couple of Type 9's, with a turbo'd Zetec (about 250ish bhp at a guess). Mine didn't completely die, but the syncros just got progressively more knackered until it was hard to get 3rd and 4th gears. Might have been excessive revs that did it to be honest, I've heard that the Type 9's die quickly at over 7k rpm, and mine were getting a hammering on track with the limiter set at nearly 8k.

To be honest they were both "well used" when I got them, so they could have been near death anyway, but just as I was about to install my third Type 9 I got offered a Sierra Cosworth T5 box at the right money so I'm using that instead now, with no problems experienced since.

beaver34 - 15/10/12 at 04:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by djtom
I've knackered a couple of Type 9's, with a turbo'd Zetec (about 250ish bhp at a guess). Mine didn't completely die, but the syncros just got progressively more knackered until it was hard to get 3rd and 4th gears. Might have been excessive revs that did it to be honest, I've heard that the Type 9's die quickly at over 7k rpm, and mine were getting a hammering on track with the limiter set at nearly 8k.

To be honest they were both "well used" when I got them, so they could have been near death anyway, but just as I was about to install my third Type 9 I got offered a Sierra Cosworth T5 box at the right money so I'm using that instead now, with no problems experienced since.

were they standard boxes?

djtom - 15/10/12 at 04:30 PM

yep, both were bog standard Sierra boxes, of unknown history, but assumed to have been well abused in their original homes before I got my hands on them!

beaver34 - 15/10/12 at 04:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mikey p
Guys,

How many of you are running standard short shaft type 9's and that much power in a seven style car? non HD box.
I know they are quoted at ~150BHP/Nm but that will be in a heavier car.....

Or if you have killed one!

Cheers Mike

mike im using a semi helical gearset in mine, and i presume you know my car from zsoc with the sigma turbo engine

http://www.spcomponents.co.uk/gpage3.html

beaver34 - 15/10/12 at 04:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by djtom
yep, both were bog standard Sierra boxes, of unknown history, but assumed to have been well abused in their original homes before I got my hands on them!

thats not bad then!

how long did they last?

Oddified - 15/10/12 at 04:45 PM

Worn syncros aren't power related though.

Ian

djtom - 15/10/12 at 04:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Worn syncros aren't power related though.

Ian

Agreed, as said above it was probably more a case of more revs than the box agreed with (and possibly a distinct lack of mechanical sympathy once the red mist descended on track).

They lasted fairly well, I must have got a good year out of each before the balky gearchange annoyed me to the point I changed the box. To be honest the second one would probably still be in there now if I hadn't been offered the Cossie box, for normal use it was just about ok but changing gear at high revs / high load on track was getting a bit hit and miss.

mikey p - 15/11/12 at 12:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by beaver34

quote:
Originally posted by mikey p
Guys,

How many of you are running standard short shaft type 9's and that much power in a seven style car? non HD box.
I know they are quoted at ~150BHP/Nm but that will be in a heavier car.....

Or if you have killed one!

Cheers Mike

mike im using a semi helical gearset in mine, and i presume you know my car from zsoc with the sigma turbo engine

http://www.spcomponents.co.uk/gpage3.html

Yes I do! yeah I'm going to give it a go with the standard gear kit and if that fails I will probably convert to a mx5 gbox.
Time will tell...

Just hope I don't kill it as soon as it gets up and running haha

Mike

Craigorypeck - 17/11/12 at 11:33 PM

what about the mt75? rated at 220 lb/ft

might go this way myself

bi22le - 18/11/12 at 10:43 AM

I take it people dont use the cossie stronger boxes because of. Physical size?

Interesting to read about syncro issues on track. I was hitting over 8k rev yesterday and had red mist. At times i felt i could of been kinder on the gear box.

I hope i have not pushed it closer to deaths door!!

NeilP - 18/11/12 at 03:27 PM

Bog standard box from a V6 capri - 200bhp up it's wotnot - 10" wide rears, an LSD and plenty of hammering and still going strong 5 years on...