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Durateckers Help Please
big-vee-twin - 29/11/12 at 03:29 PM

Hi all,

As you know I have been installing a Duratec 2.0 into my Panther.

I am coming to the end of my build, and have been tuning the engine a little with MS, it now runs sweet revs freely etc.

However, last night I spotted oil on the side of the engine block below the exhaust manifold, when I put my fingers up under the exhaust along the head block joint I found black oil.

No Oil in Water, No water in oil in fact oil is clean.

Think I may need a new head gasket?

Opinions please

[Edited on 29/11/12 by big-vee-twin]

blakep82 - 29/11/12 at 04:11 PM

what does this stuff smell like? could it be unburnt fuel and soot, and the exhaust gasket not quite sealing right?

big-vee-twin - 29/11/12 at 04:19 PM

Its black and has a thin oily consistency. The actual oil in the sump is new so is quite clean.

Would be nice if it was that, have a cold at mo so didn't smell much, but can re check.

Was planning to take off manifold and have a look underneath.

ali f27 - 29/11/12 at 05:56 PM

Sounds like a bit of grott manifold might be a bit warped might need 2 gaskets any how hope its okay still plodding with mine i died about 2 month ago but jane brought me round good lass so that has put me back with my engine looking forward to meeting you and car next summer
Ali

BaileyPerformance - 29/11/12 at 06:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
Hi all,

As you know I have been installing a Duratec 2.0 into my Panther.

I am coming to the end of my build, and have been tuning the engine a little with MS, it now runs sweet revs freely etc.

However, last night I spotted oil on the side of the engine block below the exhaust manifold, when I put my fingers up under the exhaust along the head block joint I found black oil.

No Oil in Water, No water in oil in fact oil is clean.

Think I may need a new head gasket?

Opinions please

[Edited on 29/11/12 by big-vee-twin]



Check the oil level, make sure it has not risen up the dip stick - stick your nose in the oil filler cap hole, if you can smell fuel you have petrol in the oil, this can seep out exhaust gasket. We have seen this countless times on all sorts of engines that have been tuned with autotune or guesswork, if any sign of fuel in the oil at all change it to avoid engine damage.

I would be surprised if the head gasket has gone, we have never seen a duratec with gasket problems unless it has been abused. (overheating normally)

big-vee-twin - 29/11/12 at 07:44 PM

When I checked oil level it had not moved from when I filled it.

Car is not on road so hasn't been driven only adjusted MS settings to get good tick over

It idles at just over 1000 rpm with AFR measured at 13.5

big-vee-twin - 29/11/12 at 10:38 PM

OK on further inspection petrol is in the oil so looks like I need to change it out and the filter, the engine has run very rough in the recent past popping, banging and farting I havnt really bothered with it til recently as was getting on with building so last couple of weekends got it idling smoothly but car has never been driven.

So BP can you tell me main reason why this happens so I can avoid it happening again

BaileyPerformance - 30/11/12 at 10:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
OK on further inspection petrol is in the oil so looks like I need to change it out and the filter, the engine has run very rough in the recent past popping, banging and farting I havnt really bothered with it til recently as was getting on with building so last couple of weekends got it idling smoothly but car has never been driven.

So BP can you tell me main reason why this happens so I can avoid it happening again


Hi,

Yes, its normally due to very poor mapping, even at idle it does not take long to contaminate the oil with fuel if the engine is started and stopped loads of times when changing MS settings / calibration...

The common trap to fall in (i have done this myself) is to assume the AFR reading is correct on the MS or assume the reading is correct on an aftermarket gauge (such as an LC1) Quite often these reading will be miles out and so you end up running the engine very very rich. Any richer then 11AFR at idle or light throttle will damage the engine (borewash) and fill the sump with fuel.
Another issue with wide band sensors is if the AFR is extremely rich the sensor will actually starts to read lean, as the sensor cannot detect neat unburnt fuel. This means the mapper (or autotune) puts more and more fuel in!!

You need to change the oil but use some really cheap mineral oil, this will help to break the glaze that will have formed on the bores, then get the MS tuned properly (on the lean side will do). DO NOT let the engine idle, take the car out and really thrash it. If your lucky you will break the glaze on the bores and the engine will be OK, if not (and it starts to breathe or smoke) you will need to rebuild it.

We see 2/3 engine a month that have been tuned manually on the road or by MS autotune, most need stripping and rebuilding due to borewash. It sounds like in your case you will get away with it as your oil level was OK, the engines we see are often way over the max dip stick level with fuel not oil!!

big-vee-twin - 30/11/12 at 12:00 PM

We'll quite a while off being road worthy yet.

So if I put some mineral oil in and give the engine some welly in the garage/drive will that help and do same thing.

My engine has only been really ticking over as car is not fully built. So no more letting the engine idle for lengthy periods.

I can only smell a slight smell of fuel in the oil, its not overpowering and oil still feels a reasonable viscosity so hopefully not to much damage done? Suppose time will tell.

I had every intentions of trying to come over to you to get it tuned, but you are quite away from me in York. However we can discuss that later.

Many thanks for your help.

BaileyPerformance - 30/11/12 at 08:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
We'll quite a while off being road worthy yet.

So if I put some mineral oil in and give the engine some welly in the garage/drive will that help and do same thing.

My engine has only been really ticking over as car is not fully built. So no more letting the engine idle for lengthy periods.

I can only smell a slight smell of fuel in the oil, its not overpowering and oil still feels a reasonable viscosity so hopefully not to much damage done? Suppose time will tell.

I had every intentions of trying to come over to you to get it tuned, but you are quite away from me in York. However we can discuss that later.

Many thanks for your help.


Hi,

From what you say i think you have probably got away with it. If i was you i would avoid starting the engine at all unless you really need to, if you are planning to bring the car to me (or any rolling road) the load on the engine is a good thing and will help break the glaze on the bores. Just revving the engine without any load will not sort it, the engine needs to be on a reasonable load to break it in.

When we first run a new engine (on cheap 20/50 oil) we estimate the MS settings, set the idle screw high, then start it. We run the engine at 2500-3000RPM for 15mins to bed the cams in, then a quick oil and water check, look for leaks and so on, then stick it on the dyno. We run the car on the dyno at fixed load (1/4 throttle) at between 2000-4000RPM with an AFR of about 13.5 for about an hour. The engine is now fully broke in and ready for some hammer mapping it!!

When the mapping is complete we advise the customer to use semi-synthetic oil for a couple of thousand miles, then fully if he or she whats to. Semi/fully synthetic must NEVER be used in a new engine.

Your welcome! Happy to help / advise anyone on this forum, my pleasure :-)

Nitrogeno25 - 30/11/12 at 09:52 PM

Hi,

Maybe I'm very lucky but I started my duratec with MS (jenvey DTH TBs, stock injectors) got a sensible idle at 12:1 at first and adjust then to 1000rpm and 13:1 AFR. My LC-1 gauge is .2 - .3 out from MS.

After that I tried to drive the car very carefully using autotune and it was an (almost) incredible experience how autotune transform the map. About 5 minutes later I can drive it at low load, after 15 minutes I started to push a little bit (4500 rpm) and after an hour it was good.

5 days after that, I made a 1000 mile trip (call me crazy) and everything went fine.

I have to tune the cold start yet as it is a little rich (11.5:1) and maybe change the IATposition as it seems it get heat soaked but MS was and incredible experience for me.

I can share my map if you want.

BaileyPerformance - 30/11/12 at 10:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Nitrogeno25
Hi,

Maybe I'm very lucky but I started my duratec with MS (jenvey DTH TBs, stock injectors) got a sensible idle at 12:1 at first and adjust then to 1000rpm and 13:1 AFR. My LC-1 gauge is .2 - .3 out from MS.

After that I tried to drive the car very carefully using autotune and it was an (almost) incredible experience how autotune transform the map. About 5 minutes later I can drive it at low load, after 15 minutes I started to push a little bit (4500 rpm) and after an hour it was good.

5 days after that, I made a 1000 mile trip (call me crazy) and everything went fine.

I have to tune the cold start yet as it is a little rich (11.5:1) and maybe change the IATposition as it seems it get heat soaked but MS was and incredible experience for me.

I can share my map if you want.


Fair play, that good going, but maybe the key to this is you got it running then drove it, in doing this you didn't have the engine sitting idling for too long, this is the worst thing for any engine, new or old.

Autotune will work, but only if the map is already 75% right. We have see loads of autotuned MS's, mostly miles out.

Its sharing maps that can cause the trouble in the first place as it is assumed it will be "close enough"!! no two engines / conversions / builds are alike. Minor differences in a car's build can have massive effects on the fuelling required.

But having said all that, nice one for sorting your car, hope you have great fun with FORD POWER (or maybe mazda!!) - my favorite!! ;-)

Nitrogeno25 - 30/11/12 at 10:15 PM

I must admit I was a little shock as it was really enjoyable process. I previously read everything I found MS related and plan the wiring as carefully as I can.

big-vee-twin - 30/11/12 at 10:25 PM

Think you have done a great job any chance of posting pictures of your car.

I have ordered some mineral oil and will change out the oil in my engine and will leave it until I can drive the car under load

Thanks to everyone to helped

Nitrogeno25 - 1/12/12 at 02:10 AM

Here it is a picture of the engine bay. I could not have done it without this forum!


big-vee-twin - 1/12/12 at 07:50 AM

Looks very neat and tidy, nice job. Which car do you have?

Nitrogeno25 - 1/12/12 at 12:13 PM

It's a Lotus S3 replica I imported from Argentina (chassis and components). In the 60s Argentina made some real Lotus sevens under a Lotus license. This license only lasted a few years, but after that, the "factory" continued building the cars. Mine was made in 2009.




This picture was taken during the trip I told you (1000 miles).

[Edited on 1/12/12 by Nitrogeno25]

big-vee-twin - 1/12/12 at 07:42 PM

Great looking car, you should be proud