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Fiat TC won't start
peter030371 - 26/9/13 at 01:18 PM

I am getting to the end of my patience


I had a leaky cambox gasket that needed replacing on my Fiat TC engine, no problem. Got new gasket from Guy Croft and timing belt as that has to come off at the same time. Fitted the new gasket, re-shimmed the valves and put the new timing belt on. When the belt went on I carefully made sure the crank, cams and aux drive shaft are all timed up as per the haynes manual.

Would it start....no way

Checked for a strong spark....yup no problem there.

Double (and then triple) checked the timing belt is correctly fitted. It was and still wouldn't start.

I thought could it be that the aux drive pulley was out before and the distributor had been adjusted to match? Simple... just follow the manual to re-set the starting point for the distributor and once it starts use the timing light to get it spot on.....having moved the distributor as per the manual I now can't get the distributor cap back on as it fouls the ends of the carb!

So what do I do? I have tried putting the dissy back where it was before (by eye that is) and it refuses to even think about starting.

Any bright ideas other than sit in a corner crying?

steve m - 26/9/13 at 01:51 PM

You do not mention fuel, is there any?
will it start with a squirt of easystart down the carbs ?

But it does sound as though the timing is out, if so take plugs out, take cam cover off, turn engine over by hand till no 1 piston is at the top, and all valves on no1 are closed

now check dizzy rotor is pointing at no 1 plug within 10% either way
if not, your timing is out, and you could move the spark plug leads around, to accomodate the lack of movement in the dizzy

steve

T66 - 26/9/13 at 01:51 PM

I would go right back to the start, and set the crank on no1 compression, make sure your cams are where they should be, then get the rotor arm pointing at no1 ign lead.

Make sure you have a spark.


It's been a few years since I dabbled with a TC but I may have a copy of crofts book kicking about....

Hector.Brocklebank - 26/9/13 at 01:53 PM

Hi

Only thing i would say is go back to the start

1. plugs out and phsyically check #1 piston is on TDC
(As no matter what the crank pulley says always check incase someone has been playing silly bu**ers)

2. rotate the engine fully a few times to re-confirm TDC on #1 is appearing in the correct place

(I.E making sure you are not 180 degree's out)

3. with crank @ TDC then check both cams are lined up properly to their timing marks

4. check dizzy is pointing #1 plug lead

5. make sure you have the dizzy leaded in the correct firing order.

6. if thats all looking ok undertake a compression test to eliminate the possibility of a bent valve

7. check that there is not a shim thats too thick leaving a valve slightly open

8. if thats all fine, check you are getting spark at all four leads

9. see if she is getting fuel when you are cranking.

10. tow the barsteward to see if that will get it to start





[Edited on 26/9/2013 by Hector.Brocklebank]

peter030371 - 26/9/13 at 02:14 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions (anymore good ones keep them coming). I have done most of them (not yet tried towing the bastard!) but tomorrow I am going to try and get a couple of hours in the afternoon to go back to stage 1... and work through it all again

Want to go to the breakfast meet at Goodwood a week on Sunday but with very little spare time to sort this out (plus the car is not kept at home but at work) at this rate I will run out of time.

PS got both of the Guy Croft books (old and new) and he tends to gloss over such simply things as the initial cam timing position to concentrate on the more technical stuff

Nickp - 26/9/13 at 07:03 PM

Time it up on no4 fella.

ie. crank at TDC, cams on their marks, rotor arm points at no4 (roughly).

Then buy me a pint when it starts

Do make sure the aux shaft is aligned correctly though, you should never compensate by moving the dizzy on its teeth. If misaligned (and not 'modified' then the fuel pump lobe can take out no2 conrod on the 2.0

Hector.Brocklebank - 26/9/13 at 08:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Time it up on no4 fella.

ie. crank at TDC, cams on their marks, rotor arm points at no4 (roughly).

Then buy me a pint when it starts

Do make sure the aux shaft is aligned correctly though, you should never compensate by moving the dizzy on its teeth. If misaligned (and not 'modified' then the fuel pump lobe can take out no2 conrod on the 2.0


That so ?

if so well spotted and please explain why fiat in their intimate wisdom decided to set it up on no 4 instead of the usual no 1 ?

scimjim - 26/9/13 at 08:40 PM

Yep - I had a 132 years ago and got caught out with this - timed on number four! (Pretty sure Guy Croft mentions it somewhere?)

Also - http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=119935

Nickp - 26/9/13 at 09:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hector.Brocklebank
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Time it up on no4 fella.

ie. crank at TDC, cams on their marks, rotor arm points at no4 (roughly).

Then buy me a pint when it starts

Do make sure the aux shaft is aligned correctly though, you should never compensate by moving the dizzy on its teeth. If misaligned (and not 'modified' then the fuel pump lobe can take out no2 conrod on the 2.0


That so ?

if so well spotted and please explain why fiat in their intimate wisdom decided to set it up on no 4 instead of the usual no 1 ?


Yes it is so. As to why? Ask Mr Lampredi

peter030371 - 27/9/13 at 07:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Hector.Brocklebank
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Time it up on no4 fella.

ie. crank at TDC, cams on their marks, rotor arm points at no4 (roughly).

Then buy me a pint when it starts

Do make sure the aux shaft is aligned correctly though, you should never compensate by moving the dizzy on its teeth. If misaligned (and not 'modified' then the fuel pump lobe can take out no2 conrod on the 2.0


That so ?

if so well spotted and please explain why fiat in their intimate wisdom decided to set it up on no 4 instead of the usual no 1 ?


Did a bit more reading through my Guy Croft books last night and yes when the crank, aux shaft and cams are all on the TDC timing marks its no.4 that needs to be 'sparked'.

Thinking about it though it makes some sense. At TDC on the first stroke of the 4 stroke cycle no.1 is about to start its inlet stroke and as the firing order is 1342 that means no.4 has just finished its compression stroke and now needs a spark to start the power stroke

Funny trying to remember all this. My wife did Automotive Engineering many years ago and whilst cooking tea last night we had a long conversation about suck, squeeze, bang, blow....the kids think we have lost the plot

Now I have it all clear in my head I am just waiting for lunch time to go and get the thing started

One bit Fiat did screw up is the aux shaft. It has a timing mark on it (great) that has to point 34° clockwise from 12 o'clock position....with nothing to line it up against (not so great) Why could they have not marked it up at say 12 o'clock? It would be so much easier than trying to line it up with a protractor in an engine bay with little or now 'straight' view of the pulley!

Nickp - 27/9/13 at 09:27 AM

The dot on the aux shaft should line up with the one on the crank pulley (if it's still std). Or just saw the end off the aux shaft and 'plug' it then you don't need to worry about it clouting no2 conrod.

BTW - Don't mention it for sorting you out

peter030371 - 28/9/13 at 08:30 AM

Thanks for all the help, got it running again

Seems that the previous engine builder had found that to stop the dizzy cap fouling the Guy Croft inlet manifold you have to move the position of the aux pulley so the dizzy 'times up' away from the manifold. Its now offset by 3 teeth on the timing belt and I was able to get the dizzy position close enough to start it.

Everything else was fine and as soon as I got it close enough it fired up with no problems and then I could set the timing properly with the timing light.

iank - 28/9/13 at 08:35 AM

Good news