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MK Indy R Engin Options
Calzonii - 24/12/14 at 12:37 AM

Still finding my feet here again... didnt there used to be a CEC section on the main forum link?

Having a bit of trouble deciding on which engine to run in our MK.. I thought that i had decided on a Duratec but now im having a bit of a change of heart. I know for definite its going to be a CEC.

Has anyone any experience or thoughts they could share for what would be a good fast engine to fit thats an easy enough install (easy gearbox mating, etc...,) in an MK Indy R?

Thanks

Current list:

Duratec
Zetec
MX5
S2000
Any others?

sam919 - 24/12/14 at 07:02 AM

Good question....from a caterham point of view to reference to, not all that different really and if i was starting again i think i'd go down the zetec route and aim for around 200bhp. I had an R400 with the same power and K-series, it had a steel crank fancy rods etc and was a blinding engine but a little less reliable than a zetec historically. I also had an R300 with a VVC rover unit to caterham 6 speed box, another good combo.

I then went down the duratec route, with 300bhp and it was too on the edge, my mate has the engine now with 280 and we reckon with fuel pressure monitoring, EWP for cooling after stop, and better oil cooling through laminova it will be reliable.

Zetec tuning seems to be slightly cheaper than duratec, and it a good solid engine, mate it to a type 9, maybe with a bit of Steve Perks input for a longer first gear and 0.87 final, 3.92 diff and its a pretty good package (going on using a 7" ford diff casing, not sure what the MK uses).

If weight isnt too much of an issue, the reliable C20XE is a good engine, ok its old but it comes standard with steel crank and 200bhp is achievable and very much proven with likes of SBD etc, just make sure you get one with a Coscast head.

I looked at the S2000 but the height could have been an issue, but its been done and you get over 220bhp as standard.

Happy hunting and enjoy the conversion.


FYI....i now have a CBR engine im sticking in, 165-168 bhp at the wheels and 400kg, it will be as quick and the 300 duratec around Croft!

daniel mason - 24/12/14 at 09:08 AM

The 04-06 yamaha r1 would be a cheap reliable option for bike power!
But I agree with Sam. A 200 bhp zetec not too expensive and plenty quick enough with added reliability!
I put an s2000 lump in an mnr vortx and it fit perfectly, height not a problem even with standard sump,6 speed box also send in as well as steering and rear diff and drive shafts (modified)
If you were to buy a crash damaged.low mileage s2000 and strip it down, you will end up with a mega reliable 240bhp, 6 speed box and LSD for pretty much free by the time you've sold the rest of the s2000 bits

Ben_Copeland - 24/12/14 at 09:25 AM

Vauxhall Z20LET, nice, easy and cheap 250bhp+

As said s2000 is a tall engine.

Vauxhall fitted in mine easy

rdodger - 24/12/14 at 10:09 AM

S2000.

If it fits in the car and budget I think it's the obvious choice.

I would imagine to get a zetec to 200bhp would cost more than S2000 inc box and diff?

Calzonii - 24/12/14 at 10:20 AM

Arent the duratec engines also tall? Ive heard that modifying the sump or fitting a dry sump is necessary for ground clearance? I think ive narrowed it down to a zetec or a duratec. Seems to be a lot of donor cars about and people on here seem to have built quite a lot of them..

Also is a type 9 box sufficient for using with a duratec? Does it take much wirk to mate it to the duratec? I take it buying a donor car and stripping it is a better option than just buying an engine unit separate?

Also when tuning a zetec does anyone have any figure on acceleration and bhp that would be what we would be aiming for when tuning?

Thanks again for replies!

Ugg10 - 24/12/14 at 10:36 AM

Probably best balance of budget/hassle/power would be an st170 with bike tbs, ecu (run the vct in off/on/off mode with emerald or omex 600 or ms) plus a hd long first type 9. Shoukd get you close to 200hp without opening up the engine.

But with the hd long first gearbox (£1k) that is probably getting close to s2000 cash so I do not envy your choice.

On the budget end have a look at the s13/14 200sx engine, loads of easy tuning mods avalible for 200hp+, rwd gearbox free.

Finally, something different if it will fit is the jag s type 3.0l v6 with manual gearbox, 240hp out of the box, and you have to love the noise and grunt. Available pretty cheaply too. There is a westie around with one of those in it on itbs running around 300hp.

davidimurray - 24/12/14 at 10:37 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Calzonii
Arent the duratec engines also tall? Ive heard that modifying the sump or fitting a dry sump is necessary for ground clearance? I think ive narrowed it down to a zetec or a duratec. Seems to be a lot of donor cars about and people on here seem to have built quite a lot of them..

Also is a type 9 box sufficient for using with a duratec? Does it take much wirk to mate it to the duratec? I take it buying a donor car and stripping it is a better option than just buying an engine unit separate?

Also when tuning a zetec does anyone have any figure on acceleration and bhp that would be what we would be aiming for when tuning?

Thanks again for replies!



Just in the middle of installing a Duratec in my Haynes Roadster. Height wise, you will need to change the sump for the rwd conversion, but the overall height isn't much different to my old Pinto. The engine itself seems shorter and also the ports are higher on the head which can make fitting carbs more difficult if you go down that route (i'm on manifold Mk 2!).

ST150/late focus engines have a better flowing head if you're after big power, but otherwise Mondeo/focus/ST150 engines are the same

In terms of bits for conversion, it's not cheap. You will need -
Bellhousing
Clutch slave
ST150 flywheel
ST150 Starter
Clutch
Water rail
Mechanical thermostat
New alternator
Coil pack relocation
Sump
Oil filter adaptor/relocation

Cheers

Dave

motorcycle_mayhem - 24/12/14 at 11:06 AM

Another vote for the almost indestructible 5VY Yamaha R1.

They need no careful love, dry sumps, billet baskets or other paraphernalia. You need a baffle plate and a breather return to the sump and that's it.

If there is a weak link, it's the gearbox with it's chocolate dogs. However, gears are cheap and plentiful and you really do have to be an animal to trash the gearbox.

matt5964 - 24/12/14 at 11:20 AM

We have a zetec with 221.3bhp and 179ftlb, with room for more to come with a little extra work.mated to a mt75 (which is lighter and handles more power than the type9, but less options on changing the internals, reverse is sync rowed and can be selected upto 25mph..). There are lots of people and companies tune and make parts for the zetec and you can get crated ones for appx £850.

Not sure on the 0-60 times as it's not my thing really and depends on your diff, wheels, weight etc and whether your prepared to fry the clutch each time for a few tenths, in the real world it's more about covering the ground on a run and coming out the corner and gathering pace rather than a standing start.

[Edited on 24/12/14 by matt5964]

daniel mason - 24/12/14 at 11:31 AM

You'll do a full s2000 install for under £2k incl box,diff,ecu,loom etc inclusive exhaust! If you do your homework

matt5964 - 24/12/14 at 11:40 AM

If your after the s2000 there is one in the for sale section

Paul Turner - 24/12/14 at 11:50 AM

quote:
]Originally posted by Calzonii
Also when tuning a zetec does anyone have any figure on acceleration and bhp that would be what we would be aiming for when tuning?


0 - 60 times are only for total idiots and bar room braggers. In the real world how often do you need to know that type of information, even racers only do one per race and technique and traction counts for far more than outright power.

As for BHP that stops where your wallet stops. I had a 208 bhp Zetec in mine, more than enough power and not terribly costly to build. Cams, followers, head work, pistons (in my case) plus the obvious good induction and exhaust systems to get the mixture in and gasses out.

Now have a bog standard Blacktop 2.0 on 45 mm jenveys with an MBE ECU. About 175 bhp but the flexibility is way better than the more powerful engine. In the real world its probably quicker.

I know which I prefer.

[Edited on 24/12/14 by Paul Turner]

[Edited on 24/12/14 by Paul Turner]

sam919 - 25/12/14 at 08:23 AM

The op wanted to know about 0-60 etc so a less confrontational explanation would be in the Xmas spirit. Bar room bragging doesn't stop their...BHP tends to raise its head more than often! Although we all want to know....

Type 9 has been used to death with Duratecs, as mentioned a few mods needed but readily available in kit and fitted form, depends how narrow the chassis tunnel is as to what can be fitted.

It's been touched on but budget will dictate your choice, if you hav a figure we could whittle it down more

daniel mason - 25/12/14 at 08:56 AM

It's the clock that never lies Sam! All that matters really

Paul Turner - 25/12/14 at 03:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sam919
The op wanted to know about 0-60 etc so a less confrontational explanation would be in the Xmas spirit.


Not being confrontational, just being factual.

There is no point in the OP focussing on pointless 0 - 60 times and BHP when drivability and enjoyment are far more important.

Since when has being realistic been confrontational.

I have had 2 Caterhams since 1988 and in that time I can assure you that 0 - 60 is meaningless. 30 -70 is a much better indicator of performance since it realtes to overtaking ability.

daniel mason - 25/12/14 at 04:43 PM

Unless your a hillclimber! In which case a poor start means a poor run!

coozer - 25/12/14 at 04:48 PM

225 BAM engine out of a cupra r or Audi TT. Standard 225bhp stage 1 chip takes them up to 270. Forged internals as standard as well.

Only down side is a suitable rwd box. Anyone know any different?

Paul Turner - 25/12/14 at 05:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
Unless your a hillclimber! In which case a poor start means a poor run!


Indeed it does but you do not get only one run in a day. The occasional poor start is inevitable and is nothing to do with the amount of power you have, its down to your left and right feet.

I hillclimbed and sprinted from 1989 to 2003 and in that time I never had the most powerful car in the class but I have a cabinet full of trophys and set class records at several venues. As I said in an earlier post " technique and traction counts for far more than outright power" but with one proviso. On some courses with long straits very powerful cars did have an advantage but those straits were never at the start of the track meaning you never entered them at 0 mph.

One example, at the end of about 1998 I decided I would be using the Caterham more on the road and to make the car more pleasant to drive changed the Kent 254 cam for a Kent ground K3A. The result was a fall in power from about 175 bhp to 165 bhp and a much more tractable car. The following year at Curborough (the only venue I visited that year) I expected to be slower than my previous best since the car was the same in every way except I had less power and one year older tyres. Over the line I had lost 3 mph according to the speed trap (proving I had less power) yet I was beating my previous best time by over 1/2 a second by the second event of the season.

Calzonii - 25/12/14 at 05:20 PM

The budget is about £10k Sam.. Im not sure atm... its an MK indy R that we are choosing as a chassis kit.

Ugg had discussed a 3.0l v6 jag stype engine.. What year is that Ugg? My dad used to have an S type and the engine pulled and sounded so good!

It hink the overall concensus seems to be Duratec or S2000? Ill keep you boys updated with further developments.. I take it cosworth engines are a fortune?

daniel mason - 25/12/14 at 06:09 PM

Correct. A few hillclimbs you get 2 timed runs (barbon, Oliver's mount etc) and it is a big factor!
The top boys run big power, those with limited power very rarely do well, unless your paul masters.

sam919 - 25/12/14 at 09:24 PM

Is that 10k all in? Or just for engine/ box/ diff arrangement. V6 might be a little heavy up front but it depends what you want to do with the car? Tyres and set-up/ decent shocks will make a hell of a difference, just depends what your after.

daniel mason - 25/12/14 at 10:20 PM

Vortex s2000 for sale!

Calzonii - 26/12/14 at 12:10 AM

Id love to say £10k just for engine/transmission! but unfortunately not! haha.. Infact its prob gonna be about £14k all in for the whole car to be finished.. Im a new graduate and living in bristol at my mates house whos a wualified mech eng of 3 years and we are lookin at a project we can start for the next year+.. So prob about £7k each is the limit.. Hes just bought himself a house with a garage for this soul purpose!

What have you guys built?

The last few weeks ive been flatout on youtube and other places looking up stuff about kit car engine conversions.. Cant wait to get started!

Whats asking price for vortex dan?

Badger_McLetcher - 26/12/14 at 02:15 AM

Strangely enough I'm putting a Jag V6 into a Haynes Roadster, so may be able to answer some of your questions if you want. Also I tend to loiter around Bristol a fair bit

daniel mason - 26/12/14 at 11:02 AM

Not sure mate. Brett jones is selling it part built in the for sale section.
But it will be a lot less then building from scratch! They are a very good chassis to and the guys at mnr are very good to deal with