Looks like I'm gona have to dry sump me car BUGGER !

Anyone out there got any ideas on fabricating a cheap dry sump kit.

Was thinking of using of using the power steering pump but not sure if it will run in air or not.

Any ideas welcome.

Fabrication is not a real problem forking out hard cash always seems to be

Trev, what I remember, as dry sump pump will have to have 3/4 stages(ie seperate pumps) in it,
one stage to supply oil under pressure and two to return the heated therefore expanded oil to a storage tank.

Always willing to be proved wrong and interested in the idea.

All the best Dan.

I was reading an article yesturday about k-series engines in Westfield having a single stage pump !

http://www.headertanks.info/automotive-parts.shtml

yiu can surely get pumps cheaper than this !

Is this you, or complete coincidence??? If not, someone else going through similar though patterns...

Hi Trev,

I believe there is going to be an article in the next Practical Performance Car magazine about diy (locost) dry sumping.

PS, I've U2U'ed you before as I only live in Malton, but you seem to ignore my messages. Can you tell me why?

Cheers

Not me I'm very glad to say.

This person you mentioned is O'Welly. He is the conciever of all the strange ideas i post about, and the person who forced me into using the alfa.

I say 'Forced'. He just abandoned it on my drive.

The intention was to put the engine into his Magenta, but thought it more amusing to presure me into fitting it into my Gemini.

And as for Mr Northy, I apologise perfusely for not replying to your U2U's, still new to this forum thing, but if you let me know where you live, i shall call round and drink your tea.

The mag you mentioned contacted Welly this week and wanted some photo's of the Engine in the gemini, cos i think they may be doing something on Alfa converting as well.


Keep all you idea's coming in tho'

[Edited on 26/11/2004 by Trev Borg]
Rescued attachment 2004_1111_195032AAq.JPG

You could think about a device called Accusump. It can be used as a "pre-oiler"
but also used as an oil "reserve." It is plumbed inline much like an oil cooler. Oil from the pump flows to the tank of the Accusump, then to the block. Oil in the tank is maintained under pressure so that if the pump sucks air, then oil under pressure continues to flow to the block. Oil/pressure in tank is replenished when pump picks up more oil.

Point here is that you can lower the amount of oil in the sump, safe in the fact that adequate oil, under pressure, is available in the tank. If you don't need to maintain as much oil in the sump (its in the tank), you can shorten the sump to gain clearance.

www.accusump.com/

dave

[Edited on 27/11/04 by dmottaway]

I was looking at a dry sump alternative for my CA engine setup. Single stage pumps can be had from Pace for about £165. My half baked plan was to have a single stage pump driven by one of the spare pulleys on my front pulley (power steering and air-con drivers) modified to be toothed...then feed the oil into a large header tank. Then a gravity feed pipe back to a pipe sticking out the sump that is in turn connected back to the oil pickup pipe so the standard engine oil pump pumps it back round and pressurises it. So long as there was always a good head of oil gravity feeding the oil pick-up anyone spot any mistakes.

Firstly the cost and potential of wrecking my fresh built engine has put me off, this may be something I will try with an old engine installed in the 200. Also the height gained at the sump is always weighed against the depth of the bellhousing which on my engine and gearbox combo it isnt worth taking more than about 25-30mm off the sump anyhow.

So on cost and effort gorunds I am doing the old cut and shut sump trick.

James

GB Engineering, (grass track fame) used to do a cheap dry sump, i had one on a Atmo Cosworth, it was very simple and you could make one yourself.

a ally block was/is machined to take internally oil pump gears from an oil pump of your choice, this acts as the scavage pump and is driven by a belt from the crank pully, the standard sump is cut n shut maybe 2" deep, the oil pickup pipe is fabricated to stick out of a hole in the side of the sump with a "dowty" seal on the inside and outside to make it oil tight, this acts as the normal inlet from the dry sump tank with the scavange pump feeding the tank from the btm of the sump.

These worked very well with no failures i'm aware of, i ran one for two years before i sold the engine complete with the drysump, it went into a westfield and as far as i know is still going strong.

Hope i made sense, not that far removed from your idea above.

Yeah this sounds similar to my idea except for I would use an off the shelf pump. Also there is a bit of an assembly issue, hence why I was going to have a say 1/2" bore pipe welded through the sump wall (similar to the turbo oil return pipe) the inside end being connected to the oil pickup on the engine pump by a long run of rubber hose say 8"-10", so that when the sump is pulled down the rubber tube flexes and collapses or whatever and it is possible to undo the jubilee clip holding it to either the feed pipe welded into sump or the oil pickup, alternatively there are bound to be commercially available quick hose clip connector type things that could be used to avoid the mess and faff of undoing a very oily jubilee clip.

But still the amount of effort to reduce the sump height is only worth it if the bottom of the bellhousing is quite high aswell, otherwise the only reason for having the dry sump and a scavenging pump is simply to avoid any problems caused by potential oil surge problems.

James

mentioned above is accusump, i run one of those with no problems, i know where there are two waiting for new owners at the right price, the one advantage i find is its sat in garage now with 80psi of oil in it, i can send that round engine before i start it to pre oil it, as you prob know 99% of engine wear/damge is done on start up till oil get around.

Ide be very waery of using any "flexible" pipe on the inlet side of the oil pick up, if the pump sucks it flat its "game over" the system Geoff used was very simple with the solid pipe just bent to the side so it "showed" its face thru a hole in the side of the sump when the sump was bolted up and sealed once tight'nd.

For insurance a sump cut as low as the bell housing with an accusump would work fine, that said a baffled sump cut to bell housing would work fine too.

John Beardmore made his own for a FIAT TC.
Click here

HTH

Excellent link !

yes but he used an expensive pump. The rest is fairly easy to make (formula vauxhall juniors used a very similar system to Geoff Berrisford's as described above, and we fitted this to my mates rally car)

The bit about making a casing to take 3 std Pinto oil pump gearsets is a flipping good idea, oh no, I may yet be doing this!!!!

yup, dry sump system for not much more than the cost of a tank, as Geoff got a web site ? i searched but failed.

this was as close as i got


http://www.subcontractingtalk.com/news/eur/eur101.html

No he hasn't, he's too busy I think!! I have to order some beadlock wheels from him for next season's grassing!! Spend spend spend at the mo! I won class 9 in Leics this year and got 2nd in East Mids so need to keep it up for next year. Getting a 2 speed Vauxhall F20 'box built for next season too as 2nd is too short and 3rd too long at the mo!!

Will seriously think about the dry sump pump idea over winter! Any ideas on a cheap source for Pinto or X-Flow oil pump internals Jon?

that's exactly the only link I got too!! his phone no. is 01270 841081, and he does very nice sierra splined driveshafts in "unbreakable" material to any length for £70 a piece at the last time I got some! (and mine haven't broken after a year of hard abuse with 200hp and a locked diff)

Auto factors ?? maybe he still does them himself ??

When i was grassin i used one of his modded VW box's, 2 x1st, 2x2nd, this suited long and short tracks and the shift was straight back from both 1st's too both 2nd's making it very fast change not having to go across the gate, i guess all these are in the museums now ? Is he still competeing, he was class 10 national champ many times when i was racing class 10.

I was thinking of getting a lump of ally and having a go myself (well at work probably then I can let them ream out the housings!)

He was still racing last year, though I didn't see him out this year. There are a few longitudinal cars out there still, but most of the quick 9's (and 4cyl turbo 10's) are transverse now (including mine though it's not all that quick!) and GB charges the best part of 3 grand for a transverse box with hewland FG internals, 2 spd + reverse. Steve Walford (www.swmotorsport.tk I think?? he's a Leics club member ) is doing my gearbox, just hope it will be ok. His seems to be ok bolted to a 2.9 VR6 engine in his class 6 Nova!

Is he still competeing, he was class 10 national champ many times when i was racing class 10.

Have you had a look at my photo archive? Didn't realise there were so many grassers on here!! (grasser all designed/made by me and the pug also (except the basic bodyshell of course!))

[Edited on 15/12/04 by NS Dev]

I gave up my CBR powered class 8 in 98 (I was East Midlands class 8 champ that year), to buy my first house.

I miss it dearly, and if I went to another meeting I am sure the welder would be employed building another one!

But, pound for pound, I think this Locosting malarky is much more fun. Tyres now last all year, as opposed to a few meetings (or even one race sometimes!) And I can go to work in it, use it at night, and dont have to spend hours trying to dig it out of a huge clump of mud every week...

Hopefully when I've got mine done I'll be able to find out for myself!! Can't see the grassing finishing though! Already planning the next one for 2006, have a pipe bender now so the chassis will be nicer, and a few suspension developments in the pipeline!

On the caterham sump foam front, how many people have you actually hear of problems from? I have spoken to 2 people at curborough running these who couldn't speak more highly of them, but then the westy forum criticise them badly, I just don't know who to believe!?

Found some results from Blatchat on the other thread for you mate...

memorys,

I remeber Chris turning up with the first "cantilever" rear susspension set up, everyone thought "nah" you know what happened next.....

My last season racing was the year GB had is one on top of other class 10, 1996 i only remember cos i just looked at the date on a 3rd place throphy form that meeting, lost touch after that, while entry fee's are more expensive i find circuit racing cheaper, and a dam site cleaner too, i enjoyed it but meetings are long drawn out affairs with little time spent behind the wheel, and the money thrown at it ??? you could buy a V8 radical for the same price.

Yes, there's certainly different levels of cost!! I already had my engine and injection system, the rest of my car cost £600 to build all in. Results not too bad considering, but then I find myself lined up next to Phil Rogers at the MAP open, and realise I have bitten off more than I can chew when I hear that his Millington engine alone was £18,000!!!!! ( I "only" finished 1/2 a lap behind him!!, in 4th place I think!) You certainly can't race cheaper at the level I'm at, but like you say, to get anywhere nationally is a different story, but then it is on circuits too!!

thats true, but at least i don't get dirt chucked in my face

i think its a bit more level playing field on the circuits, don't get me wrong i loved grassin but 18K on an engine to race on grass, is Dereck Poole still around ? i remember him inporting a "SCAT" engine from the states to put in a class 3, (a nascar engine cut in half n all ally) there was talk of another special class years ago, bit like FF with 1600xflows in standard trim, did that come off ? iv'e seen the price class 1 mini's used to go for ??? there supposed to be "rescuded from the scrap heap cheapies"

class 9 like you would be where i would build a car, probably cheapest specials class and you can be 1/2 decent without a large cheque book.....


Enjoy..........

Cheers mate, I think you are dead right, class 9 seems to have about the right combination, and yes, if I had 18 grand I would be rallycrossing (for some very strange reason I seem to like dirty motorsports!!) I guess some people like to be at the top of their sport not the bottom of the next one up, but that's not how I like it!!!

I think Derek is still about, if not then he only retired recently. He had a 2.4 pinto Starlet last time I saw him (3 years ago I think) but I vaguely remember the scat engined escort!! Sounded interesting!!

There was talk of a "formula 600 specials class" and now of "junior specials" but having seen the formula 600 initial "trial" cars, they looked a bit slow and uneventful for specials..............not much point racing them if you can't scare yourself a bit in the process!!

Cheers,

Nat

[Edited on 16/12/04 by NS Dev]

quote:

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is Dereck Poole still around ?

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Yep, that's exactly what I like (touch wood!!) about my 9. Realistically it has cost me in 2004: £100 in tyres, £220 in race and tow car fuel, £50 in entry fees and signing on, £50 club membership and licence, plus £100 on "random other stuff" like a couple of oil seals, oil changes and filters etc etc. VERY low budget, but I still managed to win my class in the club and come second in the league, I think it;s a bargain! especially as driving the car is fun as it is quite fast (well 200hp in 450kg should be I suppose!) which I wouldn't ger in the lower classes.