. A gasket failure somewhere. I think this engine is jinxed.
Do you know if the only culprit can be a head gasket or do others attempt to keep water and oil separate?
Hi All,
Trying to get some oil pressure before I try a first start on an xflow, however the oil pump doesn't seem to be picking up.
Do I need to prime it first? If so, how?
I've tried the Haynes manual and google to no avail. I took it off and not a drop reached the pump. I assume the pump connects straight to the
sump pipe which is hopefully submerged and not leaking air. Theres nothing inbetween these two is there where air could be entering?
Thanks,
Jon
On all my xflows, All i ever did was fill the oil filter up, and as much of the oil pump as possible with engine oil, spin the pump over, a few times,
until oil
is pumped out a bit, and put it on the engine quickly, 3 bolts done up, and flick it over on the starter, some times it could take up to 20 seconds
for any indication on the gauge, but mine was a capillary setup, so could of taken a while to reach the gauge
I believe some engines require the pump to filled with vasoline, but ive never done so
Ta, I just swapped the pump over with an old one and it seemed to work. Guess my other pump needs looking at... anyway took the filter off the working
one after cranking water poured out .
A gasket failure somewhere. I think this engine is jinxed.
Do you know if the only culprit can be a head gasket or do others attempt to keep water and oil separate?
I did the same as Steve - filled it up with oil as much as possible, then fastened it to the block with a gasket in between.
If you're still struggling, have a good look at the mounting face: you should see the top of a round, shiny pressure-relief piston. This should
be fully up, but you should be able to push it down with some non-scratching tool. I was unable to get to my first SVA because this piston had stuck
open and I couldn't maintain any pressure - gave it a push, it clicked back into place, and never gave me any more problems. That cost me a
rebooking fee... 
The only water - oil separator on a xflow is the head gasket, unless the head is cracked, but ive never seen it on a xflow
As David says, with the pressure relive valve, you can buy an uprated kit that keeps the oil pressure up, but all i did was stick a small washer under
the spring, and did the same thing
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
The only water - oil separator on a xflow is the head gasket, unless the head is cracked, but ive never seen it on a xflow
As David says, with the pressure relive valve, you can buy an uprated kit that keeps the oil pressure up, but all i did was stick a small washer under the spring, and did the same thing
Also, I just noticed that the gasket blocks some of the waterways completely up, the triangle shaped one in the center of the head.
Checked my order and I did get it from Burtons, however the same part number now points to a Reinz (FP287) part.
Burtons have a good range of head gaskets, mine were around the £25 mark, and i never had a problem, i do not own any of my car or paperwork now, si
One side from memory does cover the water away, but again from memory i had used gaskets that had a very small hole in the gasket were you would
expect it to be triangle cut out
I have never used any sealant on a xflow head, just a light oiling with engine oil
steve
X flow heads can and do crack , one of my spare heads is cracked across the water ways between cylinders 2 and 3
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
X flow heads can and do crack , one of my spare heads is cracked across the water ways between cylinders 2 and 3
With rover v8 the trick was to pack the oil pump cavity with vaseline, which dissolves in the oil. I did the same with my crossflow.
With RV8, the oil pump can be turned over by rotating the distributor drive, requires a special tool, basically a tube with a a tab or slot depending
on the age of the engine. I used a cordless drill to spin it and you can feel resistance when the pump is primed.
You can't do that on crossflow, remove the spark plugs and spin engine for 30 seconds, have the rocker cover off so you can see oil coming out
the rockers.
quote:
Originally posted by joneh
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
X flow heads can and do crack , one of my spare heads is cracked across the water ways between cylinders 2 and 3
Will give it a close inspection but I think it's just that I bought the cheapest gasket in 2016. Water was weeping out from between the head and block and looking at the gasket material, I can't see how such a thin shiny gasket, with steel in it can make a flat surface seal.
Maybe my torques weren't right on the head as I googled the gasket it seems to be a common gasket.
[Edited on 2/1/21 by joneh]
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
quote:
Originally posted by joneh
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
X flow heads can and do crack , one of my spare heads is cracked across the water ways between cylinders 2 and 3
Will give it a close inspection but I think it's just that I bought the cheapest gasket in 2016. Water was weeping out from between the head and block and looking at the gasket material, I can't see how such a thin shiny gasket, with steel in it can make a flat surface seal.
Maybe my torques weren't right on the head as I googled the gasket it seems to be a common gasket.
[Edited on 2/1/21 by joneh]
Head gasket failure on the Xflow happened although it wasn’t a bad problem . As for the gasket covering waterways that is common . Did you make a habit of running the engine before you sorted the cooling system properly? I only ever cleaned the top of the block using a flat piece of wood and a sheet of Emery paper, normally cleaned the head the same way unless it was warped in which case it needs skimming. Cracks are normally obvious. Headbolt torque , I normally retorque after about 500 miles at the same time check and adjust the valve clearances, it’s possible to retorque the head bolts without removing the rocker gear . If the head is cracked across the waterways it is repairable
This isnt really possible now, as the engine is built and i presume in the engine bay, but on any engine i built, i would use an oil stone across the
piston deck, a good few times, with engine oil as a lube, this will show if the block has any damage, and take off any high spots
I also would do the head, once before lapping the valves, and a good few times after, as the valves protrude from the head on a xflow, unless you have
the old low compression bowled head, which is as much use as a chocolate fire guard
At the very worst, i would run a stanley blade across both mating surfaces, to check that there wasnt anything stopping a good mating finish
steve
Also, Joneh
Dont forget, that if you have oil in the water, you will also have water in the oil !!
steve
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Also, Joneh
Dont forget, that if you have oil in the water, you will also have water in the oil !!
steve
You haven’t put a bolt in the wrong place anywhere breaking the waterway?Ive seen damaged blocks previously,admittedly not Xflow It might be worth filling the cooling system with water with the head off and monitoring the level possibly with the sump plug out , any leaks into the sump would be obvious .
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
You haven’t put a bolt in the wrong place anywhere breaking the waterway?Ive seen damaged blocks previously,admittedly not Xflow It might be worth filling the cooling system with water with the head off and monitoring the level possibly with the sump plug out , any leaks into the sump would be obvious .
I have a Snap On tool I brought best part of 50 years ago that fits the head bolts without taking off the valve gear but you might find a 3/8” drive extension and a shortened 5/8” AF socket will do the job?. Always retorque the bolts after the engine had reached temperature but adjusted the tappers when cold . Repeat after 500 miles
Ive always torqued to the haynes manuel figures, and never had an issue
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Ive always torqued to the haynes manuel figures, and never had an issue
Which Haynes are you using Joneh?
I’ve always followed the torquing sequence in the purple one by Wallage. It’s specifically for the crossflow, so may have provide more detail than one
for a car with a crossflow engine.
quote:
Originally posted by wonderfulweasel
Which Haynes are you using Joneh?
I’ve always followed the torquing sequence in the purple one by Wallage. It’s specifically for the crossflow, so may have provide more detail than one for a car with a crossflow engine.
Before you torqued the head down did you clean the threads in the block? It might be worth putting a very small countersink on the bolt holes . 70lb ft sound right Double check the head bolts aren’t bottoming out , unlikely but worth checking
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Before you torqued the head down did you clean the threads in the block? It might be worth putting a very small countersink on the bolt holes . 70lb ft sound right Double check the head bolts aren’t bottoming out , unlikely but worth checking
After following all the tips above, the new gasket weeps, albeit a lot less than the previous one. I can see a small weep from the center of the
block exhaust side. I can't see any evidence of it dripping into the oil though, or if it is, it's not enough to see.
The only thing I haven't done, is source another torque wrench to check the torques. Just checking, it's acceptable to re-use the head
gasket right? No heat has been applied, just fitted.
If my torque wrench is out, I'll need to strip the engine down and re-torque the big end, if my torque wrench is fine, then I can only assume my
head or block are warped. Either way, I'll probably end up taking the head off.
Hi Ya,
I have just rebuilt my engine, along with a brand new head. I was told to make sure the engine top was extremely clean and level checked, and the new
head was also machined to make sure it was level. I used a brand new head gasket and I have been told not to use a pre used gasket as they
wouldn't last long.
I have now got my engine running , although a bit louder than I thought a newly rebuilt x/flow would be a a bit quieter but hey ho, at least it lives
again and this time without any leaks now after having to re-seat the water pump.
My head gasket was dry fitted along with the instructions from an escort service book.
Jason
I've taken the head off again, block sanded with wet and dry and refitted. I got a new torque wrench and oiled the bolts before fitting to see if
that helps.
I've checked with a straight edge and torch and can't see any warping but I guess it may be out if it weeps again. It's been a few
hours so far and no sign. Before I was getting one tiny drip over night. I'm probably worrying too much about it, but thinking it'll get
worse under pressure.
That sounds good then, good luck, I still have a few jobs to do, the list never gets smaller as new ones always keep popping up after each afternoon
working on these cars so keep your head up, eventually things work out
Jason
Worrying about it?? There should be no leaks. Use tissues or dust talc over the area to detect leaks.
My friend who has a caterham, and is probably smarter and more competent mechanic than most on here, well more than me at least, bollocksed up fitting
his aluminium head. There was a sliver of gasket folded over by the hole for the water passage that let go when car was being tuned for TBs.
158 Bhp from 1700 crossflow in case you were wondering.
[Edited on 9/1/21 by 02GF74]
Third time lucky. Looks ok after 8 hours. Will see once I rebuild and turn it over. It's a 1300 with an fast road cam, so not big power or anything. The weep was so minor, just one tear of sadness under the exhaust manifold.
Good luck but if you have problems I have complete 1300 engine, head removed, was running well.
Replaced it by a 1660 engine.
Ta, will keep that in mind.
"and oiled the bolts before fitting to see if that helps."
Ive never done that! but i have run a die over the bolts, and a tap in the block, turn the block over, and blow the crud out of the head bolt thread
holes
Why did you oil the head bolts ? as all that will do on a xflow is let them slowley untighten themselves
steve
Someone mentioned a drop of oil helps with torqing correctly. May have been on here or somewhere else. Will check them again when I finally get it running and up to heat.
Ive never put oil in there, but once the engine has been run, for 20 mins at the very minimum wait till it cools, not long in these temps !!
take the rockers shaft off, (stupid design!) and re torque the head,
Now, i did the whole process again, as in restart, 20 mins idling let it cool off , shaft off again, re torque, shaft back on, re do the valve
clearances, and job done
But thats down to you, but that is what i did
steve
That's basically the plan, although I've got to time the ignition once its rebuilt.
The head bolts are what, 70 lb ft ? I doubt they will come undone even with oil. All the oil will do it to reduce friction meaning that you end up
putting more stress on the bolts, and if too much oil, then you can crack the block due to applying pressue to the oil.
I'm not 100% sure but I vaguely remember retorquing the bolts without having remove the rocker gear (mind you I had steel posts ifthat makes a
difference).
If you really feel you need to clean the bolt threads, then to avoid any head gasket issues, the way I would do it is to undo the bolts in sequence in
stages, and leave them in the head at a very low torque, < 5 lb ft and clean the bolts one at a time so that the head/gasket do not move relative
to the engine block. Then retighten in stages.
If you do move/remove the head, I would recommend a new head gasket even if the engine has not been run, but I guess you can always try it, worst case
you need to repeat the steps.... which by now you have plenty of practice!
If the rocker gear is removed, check valve clearances cold and again once you have had the engine up to running temperature.
is correct, the rocker shaft runs over the head bolts
so rocker gear comes off.
[Edited on 9/1/21 by 02GF74]
"I'm not 100% sure but I vaguely remember retorquing the bolts without having remove the rocker gear (mind you I had steel posts ifthat
makes a difference)."
This may be possible with a special crows style of tool for the head bolts but from memory, 5 of the bolts are hidden/below the ohv setup, and not
accessible with a normal socket etc
steve
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
If the rocker gear is removed, check valve clearances cold and again once you have had the engine up to running temperature.
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
"I'm not 100% sure but I vaguely remember retorquing the bolts without having remove the rocker gear (mind you I had steel posts ifthat makes a difference)."
This may be possible with a special crows style of tool for the head bolts but from memory, 5 of the bolts are hidden/below the ohv setup, and not accessible with a normal socket etc
steve
quote:
Originally posted by joneh
That's basically the plan, although I've got to time the ignition once its rebuilt.
All back together and cranked it over, no leaks and oil flows. Will chuck some fuel in it and see what happens some point this week.
Whilst I was fiddling, I noticed that the valve stem seals have climbed up the valves. They're Burtons seals as the originals split. I gather
this is a common issue and I assume some oil will work it's way down. I read somewhere that people glue these down sometimes. Any thoughts if I
should just try this or not worry about it?
It was a common occurrence on Xflow valve stem seals , think they worked more like an umbrella than an oil seal . It may?? be possible to use CVH valve stem seals that are held in place by the valve spring? But that would mean taking off the valve springs to try
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
It was a common occurrence on Xflow valve stem seals , think they worked more like an umbrella than an oil seal . It may?? be possible to use CVH valve stem seals that are held in place by the valve spring? But that would mean taking off the valve springs to try
quote:
Originally posted by joneh
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
It was a common occurrence on Xflow valve stem seals , think they worked more like an umbrella than an oil seal . It may?? be possible to use CVH valve stem seals that are held in place by the valve spring? But that would mean taking off the valve springs to try
I never want to take this head off again!
It's alive! Thanks all for your help. Runs like a dog and stinks but it's running. I'll adjust the timing with a timing light and
eventually get it to a rolling road.
Now to finish the build...
Well done , great news 😊
Jason
Good oil pressure?
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Good oil pressure?