Hi all,

If you can tell the difference between a knackered XFlow inertia starter (Lucas M35J) and a good one could you do me a favour and see if this one looks OK?

https://youtu.be/DJIo4GoCkJQ

I'm going round in circles trying to get the Locost running - It's got fuel, compression and spark but it won't start and every time I change something it makes no difference!
If I turn it over on the starter then add some throttle the starter slows right down. Stripped and cleaned it today and it looks OK on the bench to me, but would appreciate expert opinions. In the car sometimes it doesn't turn when I press the button, the solenoid just clicks. I've tried connecting it directly to battery with jump leads, and tried starting using a booster and jumping off a car with running engine - hardly any difference. The solenoid and cables get warm after a period of trying to start, but that seems normal to me. Any other thoughts if the starter looks OK?

Thought I might be on the road this summer

Thanks in advance

If that link doesn't work I think this one does (might need copying and pasting). Thanks again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJIo4GoCkJQ

looks ok, but check the engine 'earthing'.

edit, hopefully starterman will see this, and he is in your part of the country

[Edited on 23/1/22 by gremlin1234]

OK thanks very much, I've tried with a jump lead from the engine earth to the battery but not since I fettled the starter today. I'll give that a go when I next get out there.

Cheers - Starterman sounds like someone I should speak to!

Have you checked ignition timing? Possibly too much advance causing starter not to be able to overcome the firing stroke.

quote:

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Originally posted by daviep
Have you checked ignition timing? Possibly too much advance causing starter not to be able to overcome the firing stroke.

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Thanks. I THINK the timing is OK - timing light says 10 deg BTDC which I think is about right for static (?). I moved the dizzy a bit each way while trying but I can only get maybe 2 degrees each way while it's running because the cap hits the inlet manifold or the chassis rail. I can take it off and adjust more though if 10 degrees is wrong.

The starter really slows down when I open the throttle - would you expect this or does that suggest it's too far advanced like you say? I did wonder if the valve timing might be doing something like that but I reset those (using the rule of 9 thing) and it didn't change.

quote:

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Originally posted by daviep
Have you checked ignition timing? Possibly too much advance causing starter not to be able to overcome the firing stroke.

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I'd check every part of the electrical circuit (if you haven't already!). Wire-brush every part - earth post, terminal, solenoid terminals, starter motor terminal, and don't forget the strap that goes between the engine block and the chassis (very important).

But, of course, you might have already done this...

Thanks David. I have done, but I'll do it again and check.
Thanks all for the suggestions, I'll hopefully get back out there tonight between work and dog training class!

quote:

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Originally posted by David Jenkins
I'd check every part of the electrical circuit (if you haven't already!). Wire-brush every part - earth post, terminal, solenoid terminals, starter motor terminal, and don't forget the strap that goes between the engine block and the chassis (very important).

But, of course, you might have already done this...

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Post deleted as i didnt read the question properly lol

[Edited on 24/1/22 by number-1]

You say it has fuel.....but does it have enough fuel? Is there a FPR fitted? Might be worth fitting one to make sure or spray WD40 or something similar into the carbs and see if the note changes

I think it does. It's got a filter king and a gauge, set to about 2.5 PSI which I read somewhere (the Peter and Valerie Wallage book I think) should be roughly correct. That said the carb jetting is almost certainly wrong, but I can't do much with that till it runs.

I'm off to the garage to wire brush everything and try all the advice you all suggested. Thanks!

quote:

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Originally posted by number-1
You say it has fuel.....but does it have enough fuel? Is there a FPR fitted? Might be worth fitting one to make sure or spray WD40 or something similar into the carbs and see if the note changes

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Possibly a silly comment but have you got the firing order correct? I seem to remember cross flows are slightly unusual.

Yes they are 1243 and again I have checked and double and triple checked, but will check again! Also replaced the HT leads just in case (shame as the old ones were really nice red ones and the new ones are boring grey).

I got as far as taking the battery - to chassis cable off last night and wire brushing the engine end, then the dog was sent home early from dog training so I had to give up Try again tonight... I miss working from home when you could do an hour at lunchtime! Thanks again all for your help.

Just a thought but could the issue be too much fuel (IE flooding and hydrolocking) rather than too little? That would certainly cause the starter to seize up. I'd be tempting to clamp off the fuel supply and try it and see if that helps any. If it does that's the issue. I may be miles off but that could potentially cause the throttle application to cause it to seize up.

Personally, i would pull the plugs and see what condition they are in. Clean them up or replace then start firing the car up with higher fuel pressure and winding it down until it fires...or vice versa

Nothing to do with anything above it is a well known issue that has been around since hand crank starting and kick-starting motor bikes.

It is caused by too much static ignition advance the spark occurs too early at cranking speed and engine is trying to run backwards fighting the starter.

Retard the static ignition timing and it will start.
After you know you get it running you can figure out how to sort out your ignition advance curve

After a bit more wire brushing I took two plugs out last night and retarded the ignition, it sounded very close to starting when I ran out of time! I'll clean the plugs and see if I can get a little more distributor rotation next, then hopefully it will go. I don't think I've flooded it but I'll see what the plugs look like.

Perhaps my mark at 10 deg isn't correct - think I remember once reading somewhere here that they can marked to +/-5 degrees accuracy?

Thanks

you mentioned that the dizzy cap was hitting the manifold - what kind of cap do you have ?

is it a 90° one like this: (these are meant to be the solution for this issue)
https://www.burtonpower.com/distributor-cap-side-entry-bosch-ford-x-flow-sohc-pinto-45830.html


what cam are you running in this / how sure are you that the cam timing is good ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Stuart Walker
Perhaps my mark at 10 deg isn't correct - think I remember once reading somewhere here that they can marked to +/-5 degrees accuracy?

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Ford distributors of that era only had 10 degrees of centrifugal advance as a result the engines used more static advance than typical engines of the era which had anywhere between 12.5 and 16 degrees centrifugal advance built into the distributor.
Over the miles distributors wear the springs stretch and get sloppy the result is too much advance at cranking speed even if the timing was correct statically and at high rpm.

Thanks again everyone, so much useful information! I can't get out there for long enough to try it all but I've now got a long list of your suggestions on the garage wall. Been trying again tonight and with two plugs out I got it to almost start by moving the distributor, so I think the ignition timing is close but the marks are out. I think with a bit more fuel it would've gone. I do have an angled cap but it's still tight.
I'm wondering if low pressure or old fuel is what's stopping it now, I'll crank up the pressure a bit tomorrow and get new fuel at the weekend.

The original starter problem seems to be resolved after cleaning it up and wire brushing the earths so that's great, thanks. Now I just need to work through normal compression, fuel and spark to get it running again. It has run before so I think the cam timing is OK, though to be honest I know nothing about the cam. The engine has a lightened flywheel but otherwise standard, so I think it was a standard Ford cam. Compression is also OK so fuel and ignition. I need it running to set up the carbs but need enough fuel to get it running!

I'm going to get one of those plug TDC tools and mark the pulley properly for future, thanks for the detailed instructions!
Hopefully I'll have a noisy garage by Sunday night, thanks everyone

OK... Piston stop made (shops nearby didn't have one and I didn't want to wait for an online order) and used this morning - the original timing marks actually seem fine. However the valve clearances were way off - I think I had misunderstood the rule of 9 when I set them so messed them up. Got it now. Anyway, ignition and valves now all correct but it was too late to try starting tonight, so fingers crossed for tomorrow!

I think that is progress, I hope you put the battery on charge overnight too

Battery and booster both charging

Fingers crossed!

It lives!

Since we started with a video, here's one from today -


(https://youtu.be/8yt78lz8djY)

It doesn't sound great and still plenty of fettling required (I have got the idle slightly better since this). I think the next step is to fit the new exhaust, the current one is a mess which probably isn't helping, then I can try to get the carbs balanced better and the mixture sorted.

Thanks again everyone for all your help. Knowing the starter was OK was really helpful to start with and I've learned loads. Plenty more to do but I'm more optimistic about summer again!

getting it running (however badly) is a huge step, well done!
its is simpler now, as you can now check/adjust one thing at a time, so you know the bit that's just been changed, and revert the change if its any worse.

Well Done

Its defiantly a big step forwards

all the extra checks you've done just mean you can be that bit more confident of your setup as you finish off the tune

Thanks. This weekend it's running with the new exhaust. Sounds a bit nicer and the exhaust can is glowing orange! Slightly terrifying the first time - timing and mixture adjustments needed I think!l

So... I can get it to start most of the time, but often needs to be jumped from another battery. It seems to need a heck of a lot of power to get a 1300 going. Even once it's warm it doesn't start well consistently. I think once it's running it should easily restart while still warm, but that isn't the case.

I have a theory - there's smoke (I think - could be steam) coming from the crankcase and head breathers. When I turn it over on the starter and open the throttle it releases smoke, even if not firing. The head was previously repaired, and my theory is that the repair has failed and I'm getting oil and water mixing. I also have very high oil pressure on the gauge (though don't 100% trust the gauge).

Does this sound a reasonable theory?

The head had a crack across the water jacket between cylinders 2 and 3 - not connecting them but across the head. This was repaired, but I wonder if it's now not perfectly flat and leaking or something.

Again very grateful for anyone with more experience to comment on my theory!
Cheers

Hi, with the exhaust glowing it means that the emissions aren't correct, so maybe see if you can get hold of a 'colortune' device to see how each plug is burning the mixture, it will allow you to correct the idle mixture. If you still have a cracked head it will mean the water cooling system will be over pressurised enough to see that too so just check it when first started to see if you have constant pressure within the cooling system straight away when the temp stat isn't open.
Check the wiring for a good earth wire from the battery to the engine block and chassis, along with checking you have a good connection on the starter connections.

Thanks Deckman. Earths are good now, I have checked them and cleaned them all and added a second engine-chassis one.
I'll try to get hold of a Colourtune, think it's about the only Gunson tool I haven't got yet!

I'll see if I can measure the water pressure to see if there's a leak, thanks for the tip. But I certainly think there is now, I can see some tiny bubbles in the oil on the dipstick.

most oil/water contamination gives 'mayonnaise' on the top of the engine, what does the inside of the oil filler cap look like?

Sadly yes, the dreaded mayonnaise is inside the cap and on the dipstick. I have a second head (very mucky but looks OK otherwise) so I'm biting the bullet and getting ready to swap over. So the new plan is...

Clean up the "new" head
Swap over
With newly learned skills set valve clearances and ignition timing
Hopefully it then runs
Get colortune and use it to set mixture
See if I can get a half decent idle
If so, take the head back off and get it converted to unleaded

Sure it will be worth it in the long run!

The head is off. Here's the crack:
20220209_ 200725 by Stuart Walker, on Flickr

I hoped to see something spectacular so I would know exactly what's going on, but I'm not sure I can see any evidence of leaking really? On the gasket you can see where it has taken the shape of the crack. The block has some white marks on it around the shape of the gasket, particularly in the middle (where the crack it), so maybe this shows that the head isn't flat and is leaking there.

20220209_ 200831 by Stuart Walker, on Flickr

It also looks like (I think) there might be a leak between the water jacket and the intake into 2 and 3, which is not ideal. My manifold doesn't have a connection for the water jacket as some do so I suppose the gasket hasn't been tight enough there to seal it. I did torque it up to the book settings, but this time I'll borrow a more recently calibrated torque wrench from work!

20220209_ 201337 by Stuart Walker, on Flickr

As far as the exhaust glowing it would more likely to be caused by incorrect ignition timing , if you have a decent timing light then check the advance curve of the distributor as well as the timing at idle. A largely overlooked tool for tuning is a vacuum gauge, download a chart of vacuum gauge readings, can be used to diagnose loads of engine problems

[Edited on 11/2/22 by rusty nuts]

Thanks. I do have a timing light and checked the timing marks with a piston stop after a suggestion here. Setting it to 10 deg at idle seemed to get it running easiest but it won't idle much below 2000 rpm. At 2000 the curve I have says it should be getting up to 20deg, so it probably needs advancing. Thinking about it I suppose I should turn it over on the starter without plugs and set it to 10deg there, rather than at "idle".

The vacuum gauge is a good idea, thanks. I've not used one before but just had a quick read and looks like it will be useful once it's running a bit more consistently.

While the head is off I wanted to check the piston rings arent buggered so I put some oil around the edges last night - hopefully it's still there later

Final update - I think there were multiple little problems so thanks all for the help. I now have a new head, good compression, carbs cleaned and reinstalled, timed and set. Engine is running the best it ever has now - woohoo! Colourtune and carb vac gauge balancing still to finiish but it idles steady (if a bit high) and started on the button from cold at lunchtime today. Which is a bit of a relief as my IVA is booked for 4th May

20220328_ 140737 by Stuart Walker, on Flickr