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4 wheel drive locost?
darren(SA) - 27/10/02 at 11:05 AM

Has anybody built a 4 wheel drive locost?

What gearbox/drivetrain was used?
What engine was used?

thanks

darren

Highcost builder - 27/10/02 at 08:10 PM

i believe liam is building one.

Liam - 28/10/02 at 08:23 PM

Yup, I'm building a 4WD and so is Ewan. In fact he's almost finished and has a great website here:

Ewan's Website

I think there's a couple of other 4x4 people lurking around.

After spending ages doing my initial research I'm pretty sure the ONLY suitable 4x4 donors that are easily available are the 4WD Sierras/Scorpios (including Sierra Coswworth 4x4) and, just for completeness, the Escort Cosworth. Unless anybody knows any better?

There's been a fair bit of discussion about doing a 4x4 Locost - just look further back in the forums or use the search functions. And viit Ewan's site. I'd happily answer any specific questions you may still have after all that.

Liam

darren(SA) - 29/10/02 at 08:11 PM

quote:

I'm pretty sure the ONLY suitable 4x4 donors that are easily available are the 4WD Sierras/Scorpios (including Sierra Coswworth 4x4)


The problem is I'm in South Africa and I don't think we ever got the above cars

As far as I'm concerned, a 4 wheel drive locost with a seriously powerful engine, would be untouchable off the mark yet safe/potent around corners.

I've had a look at some pics and info on hicost's car, Lots of power! but what about drivability?

thanks,

darren

darren(SA) - 29/10/02 at 10:42 PM

Definately sounds like it would be worth the flight!

Don't you struggle with traction throughout the gears?

That would be my main concern.

quote:

Dont forget when your building your 4x4 that all major league sports cars and performance cars are 2 wheel drive, end of story.


You've got a very good point.


thanks
darren

interestedparty - 30/10/02 at 10:10 AM

The only reason for having 4wheel drive in a Locost is to improve 0-60 times with road tyres. Formula one cars and most other forms of racing tyre life isn't an issue so they can use much stickier tyres which negate the 4wd benefits.

John

Liam - 30/10/02 at 11:11 PM

Oi - I must step in here and defend my favourite transmission! Put some of you traditionalist ludites straight 4WD rules!

quote:
Dont forget when your building your 4x4 that all major league sports cars and performance cars are 2 wheel drive, end of story.


Whaaaat! May have interpreted 'major league' wrongly but are you saying all decent/top sports/performance cars are 2WD? Huuuh!?! Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Audi and Lamborghini to name a few might be a bit miffed you don't think they make performance cars! In fact the latest crop of Jap 4x4 missiles are considered by many to be the most potent B-road weapons available - and B-roads are Locost territory. Hell even the likes of Bugatti and Bently have seen the 4WD light.

Or are you referring to the fact that most top circuit racing series are all 2WD? Well you'd be right there, but that's certainly not because 4WD has been proven as pointless/useless. Let me explain...

You mentioned rallying - well isn't that major league? The premise of a rally car is to be as fast as possible point-to-point over a variety of surfaces and conditions - and after many years of evolution 4WD has been proven as the optimal solution. Yep a big part of that is the need to perform on loose surfaces, but 4WD cars dominate tarmac rallies too.

OK - circuit racing. How can you ignore the utter dominance of the Audi quattro in touring car series all over the world? Even carrying a weight penalty they were as competitive as anything else in the dry and completely dominated in wet/dirty conditions. Then the FIA bans 4WD from touring cars. And what about the old DTM series - there was an example of a series with very few restrictions on development and manafacturers willing to give huge budgets. As development of the cars converged them towards the optimal method of getting round a track quickly, most of the teams went to 4WD (as well as ABS, traction control, active suspension, composite monocoques, 2.5 litre V6s reving to around 14000 and putting out 500+bhp). And that's despite a weight penalty for 4WD cars to stop them completely dominating in any conditions (or to stop Mercedes moaning).

4WD was even tried in F1 in the 60's. 4WD knowledge was a bit sparse in those days and the 4x4 F1 cars weren't very successful. Nowadays 4WD is forbidden in F1. But if things had gone a bit different back then and 4x4 F1 cars had been developed a bit more, I'll bet my bottom dollar Michael Schumacher would be driving around in a 4WD Ferrari today .

Aside: Even if 4WD weren't forbidden, I think that F1 design has converged so closely on what is the optimal solution (given the current regulations) that no team would try anything as radical as 4WD nowadays anyway. Gone are the days when someone will say "lets shove a fan in the back of the car to create downforce" or "lets try an extra pair of wheels". The most radical innovation you'll see in F1 nowadays is a change in engine Vee angle or another little bit of wing somewhere. Hell you wont even get a change to a V8 or a V12 anymore cos everyone has converged onto V10s. The same can be said to a lesser extent for other single seater formulae - they'll never consider 4WD even if it aint already banned - which it probably is. But I digress.

Anyway - slightly moving away from the subject of a 4WD Locost here! Yeah in racing series on tracks with expert drivers, and weight penalties for 4x4s the advantages of 4WD aren't massively apparent, and like Highcost points out most racers dont bother even if it's not forbidden.

But it's on the roads which are often bumpy/dirty/wet/full of unforseen hazzards, and in the hands of lesser drivers where 4WD can IMHO be very worthwile/fun/fast/safe - i.e. the realm of most locosts.

quote:
The only reason for having 4wheel drive in a Locost is to improve 0-60 times with road tyres


Whaaat!! Noooo!! I can think of lots of reasons for putting 4WD in a locost: 4WD is great! - see above; increased controllability/chuckability/forgivingness (if that's a word); traction out of corners wet or dry; wet performance/safety; the traffic light grand prix; why ever not (at the very worst it can't possibly hinder performance); because I can, etc etc. Personally for me, its all the above; a big interest in 4WD cars; the engineering challenge; and cos I genuinely believe that all other things being equal, 4WD can be better than 2WD, in any condition.

Nobody needs 4WD in a locost, but those who say it's pointless/a waste of time/unnecessary extra weight/completely out of place in a Seven (and people have said that to me - not people here mind) are missing the point (or just completely wrong IMHO). Put simply I think that if you want to put 4x4 gubbins in, and you can, and you do, your car will have higher performance in any conditions than if you didn't, so why not?

Holy crap this must be my longest waffling on this board (and that's saying something for me). I dunno - something about Highcosts' and Interested's [crazy, generalised, unfounded] comments made me feel like my own child had been attacked (probably cos I'm building a 4x4) or something. Of course I know it's all in good spirits and everything...

Let me apologise if you 'started so you had to finish' and read all of this, and now its 3am or something!

Nighty night

Liam

Viper - 30/10/02 at 11:54 PM

In my opinion (for what it's worth) a sports car has to be front engine, rear wheel drive, no abs, no traction control and too much power for the available grip, added up = BIG grin...

darren(SA) - 31/10/02 at 08:09 PM

quote:

I still prefer the arse out action of a 2wd, its that certainty, of the uncertain that makes you smile.


Got to admit, that does sound good to me! It's part of the fun of a sports car! and like you say, driver, driver,driver. I'll just have to learn to avoid wrapping myself around a tree whilst exiting a corner

I don't even know if I am going to be able to go the 4x4 route mainly due to my geographical situation.

My main concern with the two wheel drive, with some nice omph of coarse, would be pulling off the feather light beast ,without letting her arse overtake me

Highcost, what g/box/diff ratio are you running?

I see you've got a cosworth turbo pushing out some huge power, now again due to my residence, I wouldn't be able to get my hands on a powerplant like yours very easily(or cheaply ). I would proberly be looking at something like a toyota as they are cheap and easy to get here. I doubt I'd get 400hp+ but 200+ would still be tastefull too chicken(poor) to go NOs though

Liam,your project looks good, and I'll continue following your progress! If you ever feel like donating & posting ur drivetrain to a South African,let me know! heehee

[Edited on 31/10/02 by darren(SA)]

darren(SA) - 31/10/02 at 08:14 PM

highcost, what tubing did you use for your chassis? Is it heavily re-inforced?

thanks
darren

P.S this is only for the next project as I'm still busy with a x-flow version.

Liam - 31/10/02 at 10:47 PM

Arse out action is cool, and 4WD wont put a halt to that, but I prefer trying to drive really smoothly. I get more of a buzz if I go round a corner tickling the limit, and exit as smooth as possible keeping the car neutral, cos I know if I did that on a track I'd be faster. My mates reckon I drive like this when we go go-karting and kick thier arses. (I think I kick their arses go-karting cos I'm a lot lighter). Smooth smooth smooth.

I'm a bit of a techie and lately I'm really into the Japanese high-tech approach to performance/sports cars. I'm of the school of thought that a car has four wheels, so it's optimal that they should all be driven and all be steered (but I'll leave active four wheel steer a-la '93 Benetton F1 for my next project).

I'm all for chucking all sorts of modern gizmos in a car that [if properly implemented] allow a relatively novice driver to extract more performance and fun out of the car (ask Skyline owners if that's a worthwile approach). There's also just something about putting extra gadgets and technology into something and leaving it outwardly the same as before that really appeals to me. Like 4WD in a tiny car. It's hard to explain - but to use a completely non car example - Playstation control pads (!). It's like, the latest ones look pretty much exactly the same as the first ones - but inside they've shoved in two rumble motors, two analogue joysticks, and the buttons are pressure sensitive. I just *like* that kind of engineering. Maybe I'm slightly strange. Thinking back, it was really only when I found out about the 4WD Dax Rush that I became serious about building my Locost - never considered a RWD and never thought I could design and build my own 4WD sports car from scratch.

In fact - Highcost aint too different to me. He also likes shoving all kinds of gizmos and devices in his car and keeping it looking fairly stealthy. It's just that most of his gadgets go in and around his engine. Unfortunately I can't afford to install and maintain those kind of gadgets, and 4WD gubbins came free with my donor car

But hey, it's not just our cars that are unique, it's the thinking behind them and the people who build them too. That's what makes us such an interesting group of people, and so unlike a horrible group of C** or W** owners.


Darren - surprised they didn't introduce a 4x4 Sierra to South Africa. But what about an XR8 as a donor! A 5 litre V8 factory fitted to a Sierra. OK so they only made about 250 of them but you never know what turns up at scrap yards

Liam

Stu16v - 31/10/02 at 11:27 PM

Ahem *cough*. I also own a Westfield......

Liam - 31/10/02 at 11:54 PM

I only said we're unlike a *horrible* group of C*** or W*** owners. Doesn't mean all groups of W*** owners are horrible. In fact I'll be the first to admit I know a very nice W*** owner. No nice C*** owners mind.

It's funny - when I look back to those dark days BC (before Champion) , I know I'd be on the road right now in a Dax Rush, or even a C*** if I had the money at the time, and I bet I speak for a lot of people here - "Well I always wanted a Seven but couldn't dream of affording one. Then I found 'the book'" seems to be the most popular reason people are building.

But cos we're all too tight or poor to buy a kit, and now we've really gotten into the self building thing, we'll all say we'd have never considered doing it any other way, and we all reckon we're superior to people who just buy them.

And hell, we're right

Liam

[Edited on 31/10/02 by Liam]

locodude - 1/11/02 at 10:14 PM

Hey James
Must have been all the extra weight you were carrying in the passenger seat, you know, lipstick, mascarra, blusher, eye liner, hand cream and all the other female parafialier. Next time don't take a 28yr old female navigator, take a beer swilling meat eating 42yr old Yorkshireman! You know it makes sense! Or Not!!!!

bob - 1/11/02 at 10:54 PM

If you took my mrs as navigator,and it was the 3rd week of the month

Left would be right and right would be left

And they let them fly planes

bob - 1/11/02 at 11:00 PM

Anyway back to the point,i dont think its worth over complicating your build just for road use.

I've only seen a twin bike engined 4x4 on the road so far,so until someone actually gets finished with car engine we'll not know how good it is.

Iknow liam bought a very large adjustable spanner at Newark

Stu16v - 2/11/02 at 01:43 AM

Hey Liam, just leg pulling mate; but what you say is possibly to some extent justified! Saying that, in the local Westy club, theres three lads building Locosts, two folk doing Cobra reps, and one with a Cateringvan so everyone is welcome there!
Back to the 4x4 issue......
When initially planning my car I seriously considered going 4x4. I came to the conclusion that the reason not to choose 4wd was lack of power. I reckon that to see any worthwhile benefit of 4wd you will need at least 250 bhp, maybe more. At the end of the day 4wd is there to increase traction, and keeping the weight off the car would be more effective in the performance stakes than loading up with 4wd gubbins. A lighter car will stop better, and change direction quicker, and 4wd aside, accelerate better. Off the line 4wd will be quicker, but the gain here may be lost possibly in a matter of yards, due to the extra weight, and increased transmission losses.hence the need for big bhp to even things up, because there comes that crossover point there is too much power to just the rear wheels to cope with.
I am not trying to put people off, its great to see stuff that is different being done, and a 4x4 will nearly always kick ass in the rain, which seems to happen most of the time in good old Blighty. There may be something in it after all........

darren(SA) - 2/11/02 at 04:06 PM

quote:

Darren - surprised they didn't introduce a 4x4 Sierra to South Africa. But what about an XR8 as a donor! A 5 litre V8 factory fitted to a Sierra. OK so they only made about 250 of them but you never know what turns up at scrap yards


No,No, that would be 4 my project after the next, Supercharged V8 AC Cobra! heehee!

For the next one, I'm going to have to go for the arse happy 2-wheel drive


I would say theres much of a muchness in 4x4 and 2wd, they both have there advantages, as well as disadvantages.
I suppose it depends on user preferences.

Which would be better, constructing a chassis entirely out of 32mm square tubing, or reinforcing a 25mm square chassis in strategic places? At what power output would it be advisable to start reinforcing?

thanks

darren

interestedparty - 2/11/02 at 06:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by darren(SA)

Which would be better, constructing a chassis entirely out of 32mm square tubing, or reinforcing a 25mm square chassis in strategic places? At what power output would it be advisable to start reinforcing?



I can't see that the need to strengthen a chassis is dependant on the power output of the engine fitted to it. On its weight maybe, if it had a particularly heavy engine.

John

darren(SA) - 4/11/02 at 08:00 PM

Maybe just the odd reinforcement here and there then.

ewanspence - 5/11/02 at 01:05 PM

2 main reasons for my choice of 4x4.


1 - the donor was £75 with LSD, 2.8v6 and 50k miles
2 - it is very unique which makes it far more challenging as "everyone" has a 2wd.

Just thought of a 3rd reason - Liam.


ps. good ramble Liam, I read it right through and think you ARE mad but right!!

Metal Hippy™ - 5/11/02 at 01:25 PM

If you want to experience the madness of Liam, take a ride in his Pug 205 with him driving.

He'll demonstrate it's ability to do 70 in 2nd.

....and he wonders why it's unreliable...

MK9R - 5/11/02 at 02:20 PM

Refering to arse out fun:-

I have an impreza as a run about, until i get my seriously fast car finished, and the arse out fun i have with that is better than purely rear wheel drive!
Do a 4x4!!

darren(SA) - 5/11/02 at 08:00 PM

quote:

1 - the donor was £75 with LSD, 2.8v6 and 50k miles


WOW! if only we could get a car for that price,let alone with low mileage like that, In South africa

MK9R: I'm not sure I'm going to manage to do a 4x4 due to the fact that my country decided to be a little bit narrow minded when bringing in cars
unless I go with something like Scooby, but I can't afford that route.I agree, been 4 a wild ride in a scooby, nice and fun! Same time also been 4 a wild ride in some Porsches, also VERY,brown undies, but fun

[Edited on 5/11/02 by darren(SA)]

MK9R - 7/11/02 at 10:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by hicost
hence engine rebuild and upgade.

You have a serious power addiction/mental problem. I want a go in your car, sounds mental!!!

[Edited on 11/7/02 by MK9R]

darren(SA) - 7/11/02 at 07:17 PM

quote:

You have a serious power addiction/mental problem.


This brings reminds me of a quote I once heard. Horsepower is like the size of womens breasts, you can never have to much of it.