Hi all,

Need some help!

Out for a drive yesterday, just pulling into a petrol station when the thing just died - felt like it stalled really. Now it won't start. Have got spark (maybe a bit weak??) and fuel....

Also - from the crankcase breather (all 3 of them) there is 'foamy' oil - now before everyone says head gasket - there is no water oil mixing in the header tank, and the oil in the rest of the cam cover is normal, as is oil in the sump.... but there does appear to be a bit of oil in the inlet manifold....

Anyone got any ideas??? Its a completely standard red top engine, with no funny bits at all (except a smaller air box to make it fit under the bonnet). If no ideas, then any suggestions of a good vauxhall specialist in the Southampton area - preferably one who will visit!!

Thanks guys - most annoyed at the moment!

Chris

Does the engine sound to be turning over fast enough?
I've just been out and bought a new battery as the XE wasn't turning over fast enough for it to catch and start, maybe worth trying the jump leads off another car.

Also when I bought mine there was some damage to the crank position sencor plug, i'm not sure if it was sparking or not when it was like that but it sure as hell wouldn't fire.

Is it an engine with a dizzy or a coil pack?

If its the standard inlet manifold I think there was a bit of manky rubbish in the bottom of mine, but it had been stood for quite a while, I dont' think the shape of it helps either.

also you weren't going to the petrol station because you were desperately running out of fuel were you? it might have picked up some rubbish in the fuel line, or if air has got in there's that little air vent on the fuel rail if its the standard injection.

[Edited on 10/2/08 by MkIndy7]

Good thought - thanks...

Spinning nicely, no obvious damage to the crank position sensor. Took the air box off, and theres a load of this foamy oil gunk in the throttle body - I wonder if this has got into the injectors or something - I didn't do the SBD cam breather mod, which could explain the oil in the inlet manifold - is that it do you guys reckon??

Chris

could try these people, meant to be very good+ they're local

Linky

I'm not sure how the SBD cam mod effects a RWD car,

Mines a FWD and it was hunting and the engine was revving strangely, it just wouldn't settle down to low rev's when in gear, if say a speed camera was coming up and you let the engine rev's die down in 4th and roll upto the camera it would start hunting and really joulting the car.
Either doing the cam mod cured it, or possibly having removed plenty of hoses and the air box it could have been a fault with them.

Is it worth pulling the injectors out of the manifold and spreying them into individual plastic cups, that would prove the ECU is fireing them, that fuel is there, and that they all spray correctly, I don't think its too hard of a job to do after removing the air box but it could save you alot of time or highlight any problems in one.

is it possible the cam belt may have jumped a few teeth somewhere (i heard of citroen engines doing this without damaging the engine) not sure how you'd get foamy oil in the intake though...

Thanks guys...

The cam belt looks OK, the tensioner is working and the belt nice and tight. I'll try the injectors individually as suggested - also I'll take everything off and clean it up, then do the SBD mod. If that doesn't work I'll go to Regal and see what they can do!

Thanks

Chris

whats the sbd mod?

Yep you are right on the cam cover venting mod. It will ingest a fair bit of oil if you don't do this. Not usually enough to cause problems but enough to make the inlet manifold look a bit oily inside.

As for the cutting out, check it all again. Do you have a spark, definitely, and do you DEFINITELY have fuel, i.e. if you poke the pin in on the fuel rail it should spray out pretty fiercely!

If you do, then unless the timing is a mile out it will start.

What injection are you running, what ecu and what type of inlet?

quote:

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Originally posted by blakep82
whats the sbd mod?

---

is it the same on the ecotec? haven't noticed any baffling on the cam cover on the ecotec. but then i haven't looked i guess.

i did notice a hole for a breather on my cam cover, and coming out the bottom of the engine (next to the dip stick) another tube full of crusty oil. can i just put a tube joining the 2? think i saw a pic on SBDs site showing that done

tube by the dipstick should go to the big port on the cam cover, and then there should be 2 other ports that go to the inlet manifold.

these are normally re-routed to a catch tank etc.

no idea on ecotec but guess it has the same in the top of the cover

top cover looks different to the xe, but from what you say, sounds exactly the same

cheers fella!

If it is, then you need to take it off, turn it upside down, unscrew all the phillips head screws in there and remove the plate, carefully clean all the sealant away, then cut the plate down so it just baffles the area near to the breather pipe, like this:

sbd breather mod link

I think I must have seen it on a different site, where you just drill holes in the plate.

Maybe the holes are suficient for FWD installs and most of the plate needs removing for RWD installs.

Where NSDEV say's that under vaccume in FWD applications that is sucks oil into the inlet, that would ring true as there would be maximum vacume when you ease off (for the speed camera example in my description).

Again as said, check the basics and no doubt something will become obvious.

its easier to be sure that no crap gets into the engine if you just remove it, drilling will leave bits inside the top bit that will drop out later on.

Thanks guys...

I'm pretty sure there is fuel (plugs smell of petrol and were a bit wet) but I'll try poking the fuel rail - I'll have to find out where!

I will do the SBD mod as well, now that everything is apart, should have done it to being with really.

Nat - everything is completely standard! ECU, induction the works - only change is a 'powercap' instead of the standard air box, just to get it under the bonnet.

Thanks

Chris

hmmm, tricky, take it you filled up with fuel before trying to restart it? It WAS definitely petrol you put in wasn't it??

Only ask because we did a huge fault finding excercise on my mates car only to find he'd put some diesel in it, not enough to really smell when mixed with the petrol in there but enough for it not to start!

Next, check all your connections on the injection loom, particularly the airflow meter.

Do you definitely have sparks at the plugs not just on the king lead? again worth a check just in case the rotor arm has dropped to bits.

Unfortunately you really need to keep doing the fault finding, because often the "experts" are not better at it than you, but much more expensive, though i know the feeling of wanting to hand it over to somebody else!

Thanks for that - found the receipt for the petrol (which was petrol - good thought though).. what I can't get is why there is spark and fuel but no bang!

Will keep trying I guess....

I'm struggling for ideas without looking at it.

To rule out the obvious you should always do a compression check, but then that would not make sense as a failure given your description of events, and catastrophic failure of anything on an XE is pretty rare, especially at the revs that the std ecu will allow.

Things I would try:

Swap the airflow meter for a known good one. Try and find someone locally with a running car with one in. If you struggle, let me know and I will post one to you, you can try it, and either send it back or not depending on the result.



Under the inlet manifold, disconnect and plug the idle air control valve hose between the manifold and valve. It won't idle properly then but should start, whereas if the valve is stuck upen it may be so lean it won't start at all (but this is very doubtful)

VERY DOUBTFUL THIS ONE but check your cam timing roughly with reference to TDC on no1 cyl (rod etc down the plug hole to find tdc, only roughly will do), its not completely unknown for the keyway on the bottom timing pulley to shear but keep driving after its moved a bit. Very unlikely though but at least if you check from first principles then you know its right.

Another daft one but I saw it a few months ago on a cavalier that would not start but all else was ok, was a blocked exhaust. If the silencer has collapsed internally its possible, so check the exhaust is all clear.

Thanks for that Nat....

Will disconnect the idle valve, and if that doesn't work I might see if I can borrow an air flow meter....

Chris

The engine will start and run without the Airflow meter.
I forgot to re-conect it once and wondered why it was as jerky as hell, it was too responsive it was off like a rocket with the slightest touch of the pedal!.

Just a thought to test the Crank position sencor, does the rpm display show when cranking?

Did you try pressing the bleed on the fuel rail, or fireing the injectors into something, being sequential injection should one be blocked or not working it could cause more problems thab usual maybe?.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys....

No luck with the idle valve disconnected, ditto with the air flow meter. Timing is spot on, injectors are all firing well (impressive seeing all that fuel atomised!) - but - think might have found it - robocar and chippy at the New Forrest meet yesterday suggested the rotor arm / dizzy, and they are both knackered - new ones on the way. Do have a spark, but with the state of the dizzy I expect its not surviving compression... heres hoping, thanks for all the help so far!

Chris

Rotor arm and dizzy changed, still nothing! Start a wire by wire continuity test today... bugger again...

Chris

Any joy Chris?

I am really confused on this one!

I trust when you had the cam cover off both the cams were turning? I've never seen it on a 16v but on 8v vauxhall engines I have known two cams that snapped, so the belt drive was still going but not operating the valves!

It won't be that but then I'm clutching at straws now. If you have sparks at the plugs and have CONFIRMED it, and you have fuel, then no amount of checking wiring is going to help very much!

Just to clarify, did it definitely come down with the trouble before you fuelled up or could it have been after fuelling up? If there is ANY question over the fuel, get a can of bradex easy start spray (halfords sell it iirc) then spray it into the air intake with the airflow meter removed out of the way and see if it fires. This will be a sure fire test of whether the ignition is working. If it is, it will cough and have a go at running briefly, if not then you have insufficent spark (and the easystart only needs a weak one)

If it does fire on the easystart, pull off the fuel pump intake and return pipes and run it all from a can of known good fuel.

Given valves that open and shut, sparks and fuel, the damn thing should fire, its only an engine!!

As I say, (and I had mentioned the dizzy bits way up the thread) by the time you have ruled out the obvious, which you have, then its usually something really daft and unforeseen that you have missed, rather than something more complex.

Thanks Nat,

No - still no joy - have changed the rotor and dizzy and coil, still no joy. Have definitely got well timed spark and fuel....

It died pre new fuel...

I think I'll compression test it next, then change the Hall sensor in the dizzy, then change the air flow meter.... will disconnect the battery for a while to clear the ECU first - other than that I'm completely baffled - and about ready to throw the whole thing away! Anyone want a non running Rush??

Chris

Hey chin up it will be something trivial.

If you can sort getting it to you then I have a - "complete and known good 1 year ago when I removed it from the engine" - injection system, loom ecu the whole lot.

You are welcome to it FOC though I would appreciate it back if it turns out to be something else, and I'll have your faulty one back if not.

Bit of a drive to mallory park from your neck of the woods but I've driven further for less important stuff lol!!

I've u2u'd you my mobile no, give me a call.

Nat

I'd like to bet that its the Crank position sencor.......

I'm not sure exactly what the fault would show up as.. other than maybe randomly timed injection and sparking events?
If the 2 don't co-inside then it aint gunna fire, when there was a fault on the plug on mine it just refused to start regardless!.

Does the rev-counter work? maybe that would instantly show if its working if its fed form the ECU.

I doubt its the Air Flow meter, as mine will start without one at all and there pretty expencive to replace!.

As said, easy start or flash dash or anything highly flamable in the inlet to prove if its a fueling problem.

The CTS coolant temperature sencor for the ECU is a bit of an achillies heel for the XE but I can't remember exactly what fault it gives, maybe if its saying the engine is hot its leaning out the fuel?
Thats the 2 pin sencor on the thermostat housing, I think there about £10 from Andrew Pages.

I would also go for crank sensor except for the fact that there's a well timed spark, which would "seem" to rule that one out, as the one thing that will prevent is the spark timing.

Does it when its the Dizzy style engine tho?

I know for a coil pack system it would mess it up completely... but on the dizzy type could it just be running far too advanced or retarded to start?

(As all the CPS does is give the advance value to the dizzy and not make it actually spark?) my thinking of how it works and baset on no facts whatsoever!

no, the ecu completely controls the spark, the dizzy just mechanically distributes it.

The hall effect sensor in the dizzy is a cam phase sensor for the sequential injection

Of cause, I've got far too much of the Ford EDIS and MS setup swimming about in my head!.

I think it needs to be narrowed down weather its fueling or Ignition really with the old flamable aerosol down the inlet first.

I've also had spark plugs that were fine sparking to the head or manifold but would break down under compression in the engine, so it might be worth getting a new set of them if they've seen a few years service, and maybe a coil?.
(it could well be something that appears all ok when testing but when under the strenuous conditions under compression it breaks down)

Yep, I was wondering the same about the plugs. He's changed the coil and that didn't cure it, but have to say I am running out of ideas!!!

deffo try the easy start test, should fire then however bad the mixture is

Thanks for the ideas guys - have left it for a few days to stop getting really annoyed! Will have another go on Thursday night (busy until then). I'll try the easy start first, but I also wondered about the coolant temperature sensor.. if they are that cheap then I'll just change it!

Nat - I'll give you a call before I have another go...

Thanks

Chris

Yep give me a call.

Re the temp sensor, just unplug it if there's any doubt, it will start without it.

Totally different engine i know but ive had similar fault on the pinto before.

After several events where it started spluttering and died on me - eventually for good and wouldnt start - i traced fault to an ignition amplifier. All vital signs were good, even had spark but car wouldnt fire up. Managed to get it running with one of those ignition boxes (breakdown tool - just fires loads of sparks to get you home). Fitted genuine OE 2nd hand amp and all was well.




Ive also had an issue on a project golf ages ago. Would run but would cut out without much warning. Eventually wouldnt run at all. This was raced to be the way an immobilser was pro fitted. They cut the main feed to the fuel pump rather than the relay side. Eventually the immobiliser couldnt handle the load and the contact was lost = no fuel pump. Wired the pump back in and all was well (and you probs guessed that it cost me quite a bit to fix including new bosch fuel pump)

mmm both worth a punt, s/h ecu swap would rule out the first one and the second, presumably no immobiliser fitted but a dodgy fuse could give a poor connection once hot

Chris,
did you swap out the whole of the distributor from the cylinder head?
I know you mentioned earlier that you had tried a different one but I was unsure if you had replaced the whole thing. If not we could try 'a good un' (a good one).
I also have the ECU from the Chavalier I broke.......if someone can confirm that my ECU, from an engine with a coil pack, will be compatible with yours.

Hi,

Just swapped out the plastic dizzy cap, not the whole thing with the Hall sensor - I think that might be a next step...

Other thing is that it died when coming off the power, slowing down and pulling over, and now there is a lot of petrol about - I wondered if the throttle position sensor had got stuck open and was then making the mix really rich, which was stopping ignition? Does that sound reasonable or complete b^%&*^ks?

I have got an immobiliser, but as far as I can tell - its working fine (power to the three isolating circuits - starter switch relay, ECU power relay and fuel pump relay)

If that ECU would work (no idea here!) that would be really helpful.

Chris

Sadly the ECU is not compatible...

If there really is that much fuel about, it might be worth trying another set of spark plugs now. You *might* of fixed the fault, but if the spark plugs are wet, you will never know

BUt as I said, if you are desperate, i have an ecu up here that is compatible.

As Stu said, get some plugs just in case!

Thanks again guys - really need to get it running, but am also stupidly busy at the moment! Tomorrow night I'll have another go with easy start and the other ideas....

Chris

PS Am seriously thinking bike carbs though, even if / when do get it running!