Just a bit of Saturday night dreaming. Im not doing it but thought id open up a bit of discussion.
How fast is a good BEC? 0-60 and top end?
OK - here is the dream bit. You have a nice CEC. But at 600Kg and 120BHP (wheels) its not as fast as a BEC. The car must remain as a CEC.
1. How much power and torque do you need to compete with a lightweight 450Kg BEC?
2. What engine would you choose and why?
3. What gearbox and diff ratios would you go for and why.
Budget is king.
Discuss.
0-60 = 4.5secs aprox
top speed = 125mph ish
Many thing are dependant on engine and setup etc.
So what CECs can deliver that?
Maybe a VHPD K series on throttle bodies
They push around 200hp and weigh in at around 70kg Approx
My first answer would be to fit a Powertec or Hole shot Hayabusa derived 2.6 V8 motor with a T5 cossie gearbox. Around 380 bhp in
"standard" tune or 450 bhp in 2.8 V8 "tuned" tune. Fit some really sticky tyres and get it all set-up properly and go beat pretty
much anthing I would imagine.
Back to the budget reality of your question.....
What about a 300+ bhp Duratec with a Quaife alloy 6 speed sequential gearbox and a serious diet of alloy uprights and calipers. Some lightweight
alloy wheels/tyres and carbon fibre seats and body work.
.....still not really "budget" is it 
I think the answer is that on a budget you have to fit a bike engine to achieve BEC weight and performance 
erm...something light with a Turbo i would think or maybe a 200+ bhp vauxhall XE jobbie or cossy turbo. You are going to be hard pushed to initially keep up with a bec with a cec as they deliver there power in different ways.
keep your cec lol 1200+rpm turbo bec 550bhp 
MB CUSTOMS 
MOVE TO THE DARK SIDE
o and mac1 let me down on my frame but spire sports paul did a top job
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
How about a 5 litre TVR version of the RV* with a supercharger, not too heavy loads of power but serious uprated back axle LSD and serious rubber will
be required to get power onto road!
Caber
I get the instant performance of a BEC, but what about durability.
How long does it last with the 350Kg extra weight to push around etc. How much to rebuild th e gearbox/engine.
If you say the cost are over 20K miles, maybe a tuned duratec doesn't seem that expensive?
20k for most of us would equate to about 7 years driving??
quote:
Originally posted by eznfrank
20k for most of us would equate to about 7 years driving??
Oh I should of put 'Runs for cover!!!' at the end of that
I think its widely understood that £ for £ not much can touch a BEC, especially now that the new generation kits also have lightweight components.
Point if this thread is to understand what spec a CEC would need to be to keep up with a ZX10 / ZX12 / R1 BEC weighing in at 450Kg.
If we assume a good BEC is 170bhp, P:W at around 350bhp per ton. Does this mean if your CEC is 600Kg then having 220 - 240bhp would get you close to
same performance?
Thanks for jumping in hicost. Ive never read what your overall spec is but it sounds rather good.
A good duratec seems like a good base for modern power. Not sure if anyone has supercharged one yet.
Nat - how does your car compare to BECS??
[Edited on 16/2/08 by DarrenW]
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
If we assume a good BEC is 170bhp, P:W at around 350bhp per ton. Does this mean if your CEC is 600Kg then having 220 - 240bhp would get you close to same performance?
I'm not the best at specific models of engine with the Vauxhall 16Vs. Alloy block 1.6 can make 250bhp and keeps up and beats all of the bike
engined cars. Don't bother looking any further.
That's what I saw last year and the year before at all the sprints and hillclimbs I went to. I fully expect this year to be the same.
Having said that, the driver is such an important part of the package, and you just can't buy that.
I could have all of the money in the world and be running 350bhp of powertec V8 and wouldn't beat the above combination.
It's such an abstract question as to almost be redundant. Unless of course you're just talking about drag racing, and I assume we're
talking about more than that.
quote:
Originally posted by hicost
Just to add I always get the impression BEC are working harder than CEC to keep up the same pace, a bit like a cheetah that can run fast for a short period then has to rest.
Consistency always will win through!
If you want to test your constancy enter the
www.guildofmotorendurance.co.uk Mallory park 6 hour event in May. 4 other cars off the forum have.
quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
I'm not the best at specific models of engine with the Vauxhall 16Vs. Alloy block 1.6 can make 250bhp and keeps up and beats all of the bike engined cars. Don't bother looking any further.
That's what I saw last year and the year before at all the sprints and hillclimbs I went to. I fully expect this year to be the same.
Having said that, the driver is such an important part of the package, and you just can't buy that.
I could have all of the money in the world and be running 350bhp of powertec V8 and wouldn't beat the above combination.
It's such an abstract question as to almost be redundant. Unless of course you're just talking about drag racing, and I assume we're talking about more than that.
ok eat your hat proof in pud " target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38TFetQAe2o&NR=1 0to 60 lol
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
Just to pull the reigns in a bit. Assuming BEC performance is the goal and there is no need for BEC devotee's to defend there marque, Given that
an average BEC can perform 0-50 in 4.5 - 5.0 secs range. What CEC spec would you go for to give proven advantage assuming a reasonable budget should
be upheld?
Reliability of a BEC is not in doubt. We are only looking at proven performance data and driver talent should be considered to be a constant.
Maybe another bench mark should be - what spec would you opt for to challenge the Ultima 0 - 100 - 0 spec with a 7esque car.
Ill have to leave the floor open to you now. My tot of talisker is taking its toll.
ok so to beat us bec lads you will need lol this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FvqIUBP5Gc
s2000 or another tuned engine would beat most becs. I think CECs are easier to thrash than becs, besides the gearchanges, though becs like the
thrashing more.
Yuo cant get round the fact that for £3k you can have a sub 5 second car. Locosts kick ass, whatever engine you put in them!
Must say though, only the bec ever made me get out shaking after nipping to the shops for milk
quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
ok so to beat us bec lads you will need lol this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FvqIUBP5Gc
i run a ep3 type r every day and i say that your not so right my imp will destroy my type r all day long hmmm let me think why have i spent so
much£££££ on my imp best ask malc MB CUSTOMS lol
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
If i had plenty of cash my 2 car garage would probs be an Ultima and a BMW E30 M3 sport Evo (id leave the RR sport and S4 etc on the drive outside). So with this in mind ive often wondered what a 7 would be like with M3 power. Difficuly choice between 4 cyl S14 and later 6cyl. That said V8 soundtrack is purely evocative, can a LS1 fit in 7 engine bay?
is that a trade add for mac 1 motor sports? i was told you need to have trade status to have a add like that
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
i run a ep3 type r every day and i say that your not so right my imp will destroy my type r all day long
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
So what CECs can deliver that?
You had to ask yes i have i own 1 full race greetham 998 with wedge head r23 cam hepolite pistons block strengthening kit large sump twin 40s combined inlet and
exhaust manifold cost me lots of Penny's and gives 120bhp IMP 998CC modified to full race spec = 124 bhp @ 9000 rpm/84ft/1bs torque @5500
rpm
[Edited on 19/2/08 by imp paul].JPG)
it revs very happy to 10000 rpm
[Edited on 17/2/08 by imp paul].JPG)
i have not run it for some 16 years now
[Edited on 17/2/08 by imp paul].JPG)
I think under normal racing conditions a BEC is pretty much untouchable, unless you're spending a lot of money on the car engine..
But what I'm wondering is how much performance suffers when you add a passenger? Or drive on B roads with lots of hills?
Darren, you've got to come out on a blat sometime! Based on my experience of blatting with about 12 cars I'd say that:
The fastest three are Peter in his R500 (heavily modified / expensive K-series), Mike K in his Westie (VX 2 ltr with dry sump, hairy cams and throttle
bodies) and Jeff (2 litre zetec and no brains / brakes)
Then come the BEC's.
Then come the Pinto's, X-flows etc.
If I was a hypothetical person looking to upgrade a CEC to rival a BEC, you need to be looking at a Zetec or Vauxhall XE. Both able to bolt up to a
type 9 (with the adaptor for the XE), run normal or LSD diff and fit megasquit with bike throttle bodies and fuel injection.
Cheers
Mike
quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
yes i have i own 1 full race greetham 998 with wedge head r23 cam hepolite pistons block strengthening kit large sump twin 40s combined inlet and exhaust manifold cost me lots of Penny's and gives 120bhp
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Just a bit of Saturday night dreaming. Im not doing it but thought id open up a bit of discussion.
How fast is a good BEC? 0-60 and top end?
OK - here is the dream bit. You have a nice CEC. But at 600Kg and 120BHP (wheels) its not as fast as a BEC. The car must remain as a CEC.
1. How much power and torque do you need to compete with a lightweight 450Kg BEC?
2. What engine would you choose and why?
3. What gearbox and diff ratios would you go for and why.
Budget is king.
Discuss.
Haven't read the whole thread so pardon me if I miss the point.
My car is not built very light i.e. no alloy hubs, iron rear calipers, many brackets etc that can be made lighter, full cast iron gearbox casing (std
type 9) etc etc.
It weighs in at 550kg (actually between 540kg and 560kg wet weight 2/3 tank of fuel depending on the weighbridge)
It has a good old cast iron blocked Vauxhall XE engine in it, on STANDARD cams, std bottom end with stronger rod bolts (Northbridge Motorsport ones
not that it matters, they are in leicester so local), Jenvey 45mm parallel SF throttle bodies on an SBD manifold (cast by Jenvey) and with MBE 956E
management and a (very) slightly modified "SBD 208 kit" map.
On various rolling roads it has made between 200 and 210hp, and the same spec engine but on 48mm parallel bodies in my grasser made 204hp on the
rollers. These are standard engines, no internal mods.
Interestingly, the "at the wheels" figures are quite good too at 176hp@ wheels or thereabouts.
This all gives around 373hp per tonne, which is enough to be competitive.
Re. the torque values, again the vauxhall hits hard there with, again on a stock engine, 168lbft of torque (both engines I have run made similar) on
std cams.
I have concluded that on the XE engine cam swaps are pointless unless you fit intruder pistons and steel rods, as the pockets in the std pistons lose
you compression if you fit bigger cams, and you can't use the extended rev range of the engine when cams are fitted without doing the rods (well
you can but sometime it will blow up)
SBD's figures for the stock vauxhall engine on Griffin Motorsport's Dyno (not rolling road)
Hi Nat - only reason for post was purely hypothetical in a way to investigate what a CEC spec would need to be to be competitive against a BEC. Based
on that most BEC's are light engines and lightweight chassis so are quick and CEC's tend to be a bit heavier and more a GT spec. It was a
just for fun post rather than any plans i may have.
It would seem that a well sorted 200bhp ish CEC is all you need to see off most BEC's. After that other factors such as chassis set up, cost +
budget and driver skill make it harder to distinguish between the 2.
yep never underestimate the rest of the factors. There always were many cars at race meetings of a poor "on paper" spec that did lots of winning!!
attention to detail while building and setup play are very important part. a well setup bec or cec will easily beat a better car on spec if it hasnt
been well sorted.
a rgb class c fireblade car will be quite possibly quicker than many cecs with a 100hp more but an average bec even on with a more powerful engine
wouldnt beat the cec.
both a 165bhp/450kg bec and a 200bhp/550kg cec have similar power to weights (370ish bhp/ton) so in a straight line will have similar performance and
round the corners the bec should have a small advantage with slightly better weight distribution and lower overall weight.
however both would be easily be beaten by a well setup car with a few of the trick bits
bec 190-200bhp 420kg cec 260bhp 520kg
and those last figures are where it gets more complicated.
Any 2.0 16v car engine with 260 normally aspirated hp will, whatever anybody tells you, cost a minimum of £4000 by the time its up and running.
A hayabusa with around 200hp, again n/a, would be broadly similar.
Those figures are doing ALL the work yourself and assuming you can find some of the costlier bits second hand.
If you go to a reputable engine builder and ask for a 260hp 2.0 engine they will happlily relieve you of £15,000 as a ball park figure.
There the 200hp busa makes more sense as its big cost jump comes in nearer the 215 to 220hp mark when the new rods and pistons come in.
Again though beware of HORSEPOWER BILLY and his wild claims, even from really reputable sources!
The radical powertec 1500 busa is supposed to be rated at 240hp if I remember rightly, but in reality we never saw over 220hp last year throughout the
season from several fresh engines....................which is the next point, we blew three during the season at £7,000 ish a
pop.........................ah the wonders of "sealed" engines.
[Edited on 18/2/08 by NS Dev]
s2000 would be my choice, 240bhp, wail like a banshee too
Not cheap though, very tall, not very light when you fit the stock gearbox either.
Still a cracking engine though!
Personally I'm still quite taken with the 2850cc / 270bhp Pinto I saw a while back
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=66377
