ruudbeckers
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 09:45 AM |
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C20xe Ignition
I'm planning to use throttle bodies on my red top engine. For the fuel injection I'm going to use a megasquirt. I don't want to use
the megasquirt for the ignition, so I'm trying to sort out another way for the ignition of the engine. I believe you can use the distributor of
another vauxhall engine, but I read somewhere, that it's also possible to use the standard motronic ecu for the ignition only. How can you fool
the motronic that it will only do the ignition, and which sensors does it need for the ignition?
I was also wondering if there are some people on this forum who are already running a redtop engine on megasquirt.
Cheers Ruud
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ned
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 10:07 AM |
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there are people on the westifeld forum running xe's on megasquirt, i'm not aware of anyone on here, but happy to be wrong.
the 1.6 mk2 cav dizzy can be used for the ignition, a few people have done it this way.
another option would presumably to buy a cheap second hand mbe ignition only ecu and run the ignition fro that.
Ned
beware, I've got yellow skin
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 10:17 AM |
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If you are thinking of using Motronic for the ignition, then why not just use it for the injection as well??????
Make up a new inlet manifold and use the motronic.
Otherwise, just use megasquirt for the ign as well, using a dizzy just makes no sense at all if you are using mapped injection!!
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ruudbeckers
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 12:29 PM |
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I'm going to use throttle bodies, that's why I'm going to use the megasquirt. First I want to use the megasquirt for the injection
only. When the engine is running properly, I want the megasquirt to do the ignition as well.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 12:58 PM |
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I thought the megasquirt'n'spark software would run the ignition ok (ie no need to complicate things with megajolt later)? Im no expert
though. I was also led to believe that putting a (eg) 1.6 dizzy on would give you only a compromise on the ignition and lose you some of the power
benefit of going the throttle body route. Instead of wasting time effort and cash now on a lesser ignition system would it not be easier and more
beneficial to set it up correctly from the off??
As said im no expert but this is what i have picked up. XE experts please feel free to dive in and correct.
[Edited on 25/7/05 by DarrenW]
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ruudbeckers
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 01:28 PM |
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I'm no expert either. So I think it's quit difficult to map the injection as well as the ignition. Therefor I think it's easier when
the motronic controls the ignition first, so I only have to map the megasquirt for the injection.
However, I don't know how you can set up the motronic so that it will only control the ignition.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 01:51 PM |
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I know a reasonable amount about XE engines (not an expert at all but I have several, two with throttle bodies and mappable management systems, both
MBE956E)
Don't go the dizzy route unless you are going to run carbs, it just doesn't make sense.
Have a look on the Westfield owners forum, there are a few people running megasquirt and sparks on XE engines on there, so I'm sure someone will
email you the base maps.
Talk to a chap on there called "Cidersurfer", he's done exactly what you are doing, and Bill Shurvington, who is the megasquirt
expert.
The ignition advance curve on the Motronic needs the same inputs as the fuelling, so it is no good to you really, just use the megasquirt from the
start..................
or call Emerald, they will sell you an M3D system for £380 incl leads and software etc, which is a doddle to use, and they will throw in a map which
will work fuelling and igntition on a Vauxhall XE on throttle bodies for free as well.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 04:12 PM |
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Another option is to fit a Megajolt to run the Ignition on the engine as it exists now.
Fit the throttle bodies and injection and get it all running and then just swap the wires from the megajolt to the mega squirt`n`spark and import your
map from the megajolt.
Then sell the Mega Jolt, they seem to sell quite easily.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 05:40 PM |
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will the maps just swap from one to tother?
If not it's a lot of work remapping!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 05:45 PM |
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Thinking again, it would be madness to do anything other than either fit a full "mega" engine management system or somehting like the
emerald system.
To do anything else will make more work, not less!!!!!!
Bill Shurvington should be able to equip you with a full "megasquirt'n'spark" system with maps to suit the XE engine, and
Emerald can certainly do the same for a little more money, again with maps ready to run the engine.
Doing it any other way will mean mapping it yourself, which is much harder work!!!!
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 06:00 PM |
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I presume they'd swap or be easy to comapre and set up after all its only a 10x10 or maybe 12x12 grid.
Not sure how you'd start to with 2 variables how would you know why the engine isin't performing it is timing or fuel?
Then again the Timing on ours was quite different reverting from Twin 40's back to the original carb,
so it could be the same in this case when you put the throttle bodies on, they might require quite different timing.
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ruudbeckers
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 09:07 PM |
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I don't want to use megajolt, cause then I still need to map the injection and the ignition, which is also possible with megasquirt.
Except edis, it's also possible to use other ignition modules, like Hei. Which ignition module is used on a standard XE?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/7/05 at 09:29 PM |
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on the vauxhall (sensibly as it's Bosch unlike the Ford stuff!!!!!) the ignition side is all built into the ECU, there is no
"module" or any external stuff.
If you buy an Emerald M3d it's all built in too, no need for seperate modules etc.
Re. mapping, you know it's fuel because the lambda will show weak/rich (weld a boss in the exhaust, fit a s/h sensor and the ecu will read it
and display on the laptop screen, again this is with Emerald but I think Megasquirt will do the same) Ignition will show as pinking/lack of power
In my personal opinion, unless you have an expert to help (like Bill Shurvington) you are best to simply spend the £380 one off payment and get the
emerald system. It is plug and play, no frigging about with things that you (well, me at any rate!) don't understand, just nice simple maps that
control the ignition advance and injector opening times!!!
If you want to do it cheap, stick a 1600 vauxhall dizzy on it and use a pair of weber 45's.............youll have 160 hp instead of the 200hp
that you'd get if you spent the money on a proper engine management system. (speaking from experience!)
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ruudbeckers
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| posted on 26/7/05 at 07:35 AM |
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And what about the little module on the bracket of the coil? It has 4 inputpins, and it has 2 wires coming out going to the coil. Is this no ignition
module? And what does it do?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/7/05 at 07:58 AM |
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ah yes, forgot about that, but that's just the amplifier, ok I suppose you could call it a "module" but it just takes the input from
the ECU and switches the coil off, effectively a solid state relay.
[Edited on 26/7/05 by NS Dev]
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ruudbeckers
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| posted on 26/7/05 at 08:21 AM |
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I just found it in a haynes manual, it's called a Ignition coil module, and it has only 3 wires connected (+,- and motronic)
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/7/05 at 08:31 AM |
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oh great, so Haynes call it a module whoop de do.
It takes a pulse from the ECU, amplifies it and uses it to switch off a solid state relay, thus cutting the coil feed and making a spark.
If you use the Emerald M3d system you can bin the lot, fit a Corsa/Astra 1600 twin coil pack, no dizzy, module or any other crap needed at all, much
better! That's what I have done, much neater setup and no wearing parts.
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