David Jenkins
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| posted on 27/7/03 at 09:25 PM |
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Ho hum
Still no joy... I took the oil sender out and cranked the engine over - no oil came out. 
Now I don't know whether to risk the engine start, or look into it deeper...
cheers,
David
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Rob Lane
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 11:54 AM |
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Trying desperately hard to remember the details but as i recall the sender is on the same gallery as the camshaft feed. Common problem is that
there's crud blocking the gallery or exit hole to sender.
Have you commoned the output to low pressure switch and oil pressure guage?
As I recall it's, oil from sump up through pickup to filter then pump, on to galleries feeding crank journals and cam bearings. Then out to
rocker shaft and rockers then drizzle return via camfollowers to sump.
It's not a pressure fed filter but a suction fed one.
If you have oil at rockers then it's doing the rounds. Could be partial blockage of gallery.
Rob
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timf
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 12:05 PM |
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dave
just a thought, you said that 12 v start wont get the oil flowing
try 24v though the starter they can handle them for a little while( used the 24v start method on rs2000 rally car)
failing that you shortend the oil pickup. could there be a hole in the pickup thats sucking in air at all.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 12:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Lane
Trying desperately hard to remember the details but as i recall the sender is on the same gallery as the camshaft feed. Common problem is that
there's crud blocking the gallery or exit hole to sender.
The block was supposed to have been fully cleaned by the reboring company (and it WAS squeaky clean! Had to oil it to stop it rusting) . It is
possible that there's a blockage somewhere though, as they may have loosened some crud.
quote:
Have you commoned the output to low pressure switch and oil pressure guage?
Yes - I have a splitter in the oil sender hole.
quote:
As I recall it's, oil from sump up through pickup to filter then pump, on to galleries feeding crank journals and cam bearings. Then out
to rocker shaft and rockers then drizzle return via camfollowers to sump.
AFAIK, it's oil pump gallery -> crank journal gallery (and senders) -> up to top of engine.
Various orifices along the way for spraying oil on the important bits. This sort of matches what you describe.
quote:
If you have oil at rockers then it's doing the rounds. Could be partial blockage of gallery.
I'm not sure about the oil in at the rockers any more... - I'll have to get the cover off (again...) and have another look.
I'm really reluctant to start the engine until I've got this sorted. Once I'm sure that the oil is circulating then I can
put the water in, some petrol in the tank, then crank it up!
At the moment though, I'm nervous. Sigh...
cheers,
David
Note: I put the old oil pump on yesterday, just in case. The rotors were a bit scored, but otherwise it was within tolerance. Same result.
[Edited on 28/7/03 by David Jenkins]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 12:28 PM |
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Anybody know...
...where I can find a good diagram of the x-flow block? Something that will show the layout of the galleries, so I'll know which way to poke
(Ooer, missus!).
Cheers,
David
[Edited on 28/7/03 by David Jenkins]
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Rob Lane
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| posted on 28/7/03 at 04:17 PM |
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Sorry David, original reply was very rushed as I was just signing off to visit a client.
If the block was done professionally then they should have removed the plugs at end of block to the oil galleries as well. This then allows the
chemical cleaner bath to penetrate throughout.
It's always recommended that the oilways are cleaned out with pipe cleaners afterwards as well. This is because when the block is immersed, the
waterways are also cleaned out and in many cases they carry the casting sand and sludge around the tank, some of which 'could' enter the
oilways.
Sometimes just poking a piece of soft wire into sender hole will unclear it.
Gallery is common, so no oil coming out is worrying, it might as you suspect mean theres no oil to bearings!! If when you check there is oil from
rockers, then it means it is getting up to there via cam bearings at least because it feeds from there up.
The Xflow is usually difficult to get up to any pressure when cranking due to low running pressure anyway.
I wouldn't recommend anything more than a second or two of trying to get the pressure up by starting it. I ruined one engine by running it for
10 seconds that way! If pumps primed it should build up pressure virtually immediately on a new engine.
Rob
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Stu16v
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| posted on 29/7/03 at 07:39 PM |
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David, just some ideas for you.....
I noticed from another thread that you have shortened the sump (on the car?).
How did you shorten the pick-up pipe? There is no risk of a pin hole in the pipe anywhere?
Did you shorten the pipe enough? I've seen cars loose oil pressure in the past because the sump has been 'bashed' into the pickup
pipe, and blocking entry hole.
In fact, the very reason I was prompted to reply to this thread is because we will be rebuilding a Pinto out of a Robin Hood this weekend. that was
taken out because of oil pressure problems. When it was cold, it was extremely slow to put the oil light out and build up pressure. Strangely, when
warm, oil pressure was actually better, and the light would go out instantly. We have found the problem, the oil pickup pipe was squashed agianst the
bottom of the sump. When the engine was warm, the oil was thinner, and must of found it easier to get into the little gap available between sump and
pipe. Luckily, there initially looks to be no damage to the engine......
Dont just build it.....make it!
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 29/7/03 at 08:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Stu16v
How did you shorten the pick-up pipe? There is no risk of a pin hole in the pipe anywhere?
Chopped a piece out and silver-soldered the ends together - ended up as a very strong joint with no apparent pinholes. I also put a good smear of
jointing gunk around the oil pickup pipe where it goes into the block when I refitted it.
quote:
Did you shorten the pipe enough?
I believe so - originally I didn't, and had to take the sump off again to do a proper job.
This is all part of my anxiety - did I do a good enough job on the oil pickup pipe...
I believe that I did, and the problem is that the engine doesn't crank fast enough to push the oil around... however, there is doubt...
I REALLY don't want to have to take the sump off again!
cheers anyway Stu!
David
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Stu16v
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| posted on 29/7/03 at 08:22 PM |
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If the pipe has been silver soldered, I wouldnt be concerned about pin holes.
Just the pick-up to sump clearance then....
An idea to try....
Strip one of your oil pumps, clean spotlessly, and pack pump full of Vaseline (ooh-err) or moly grease. Fir to engine, and spin engine over for twenty
or so secs. Hopefully, one of two things will happen. Either a) you will get oil pressure, and no more probs, or b) you wont. If b) is the case, take
oil pump back off and see if the grease has been replaced by oil. The Vaseline/grease will mix with the oil happily, and help prime the pump far
better than oil. If oil hasnt reached the pump, you know the problem lies with the supply side. If it has, then it is the gallery side......
Dont just build it.....make it!
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 30/7/03 at 07:15 AM |
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I would never have known about that technique... I like this forum!
Presumably you mean packing the vaseline around the pump chamber, where the rotor is (not all the pipes & tubes, etc.!)
That's Saturday morning's job lined up...
cheers,
David
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 30/7/03 at 01:35 PM |
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David
I have no idea of whats the difference in taking sump or pmp off, but is it not possible to take sump off, and put a pipe on the pickup tube, and blow
or pour oil down it so it goes back up to the pump and primes it under gravity / tyre pump pressure.....?
atb
steve
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 30/7/03 at 02:35 PM |
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Taking the sump off is a logistical nightmare!
I had thought about connecting a pipe to the pump's pick-up port on the block and sucking on it with my shop vac - if it goes up the tube
quickly then there's not much wrong there!
DJ
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timf
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| posted on 30/7/03 at 02:48 PM |
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david
do you fancy using a compressor to blast a shot of compressed air around the galley ways to see if any crud can be flushed through the system
Tim
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 30/7/03 at 02:55 PM |
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Maybe - I'll hold that one in reserve, Tim
cheers,
David
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Stu16v
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| posted on 30/7/03 at 05:43 PM |
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quote:
Presumably you mean packing the vaseline around the pump chamber, where the rotor is
Yes mate.
[Edited on 30/7/03 by Stu16v]
Dont just build it.....make it!
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timf
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| posted on 30/7/03 at 08:16 PM |
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david
i've dug arround in the books i've got and found a wordy description of the oil system if its any help
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 31/7/03 at 06:58 AM |
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Tim,
That could be very useful - what book is it in? (Just in case I've already got it... )
DJ
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timf
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| posted on 31/7/03 at 07:35 AM |
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rebuilding and tuning for'd kent crossflow engine by peter & valerie wallage
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 31/7/03 at 09:41 AM |
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Ah - got that one...
You are correct, though - it's the only book I've seen that attempts to describe the oil system.
Never mind - and thanks for the thought.
cheers,
David
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paulf
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| posted on 1/8/03 at 09:40 PM |
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The method I have used in the past when having problems with oil pickup is to remove the oil pressure switch and connect a pumptype oilcan to the
engine with some hose and fittings , then pump in a pint or so of oil which should backfill the pump and filter.Then spin over with a fresh battery
and the plugs removed.
I also found my crossflow to be slow to prime but after a minute or so i fitted the plugs and fired it up and got immediate oil pressure.
paul.
quote:
Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
David
I have no idea of whats the difference in taking sump or pmp off, but is it not possible to take sump off, and put a pipe on the pickup tube, and blow
or pour oil down it so it goes back up to the pump and primes it under gravity / tyre pump pressure.....?
atb
steve
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 1/8/03 at 10:24 PM |
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I dunno why david is so worried really.
its either gonna work and prime first time, or wreck his engine.
No biggie really!
best of luck
atb
steve
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 2/8/03 at 09:24 PM |
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Thank you, Steve, for that helpful suggestion... 
As it happens I decided to go for it today, with the aim of risking 5 seconds of running (every bearing had received a coating of bedding-in lubricant
when I assembled the engine).
Unfortunately I didn't get a spark (see the question in another topic!) so the question hasn't been answered yet...
cheers,
David
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