bassett
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:24 PM |
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Car V Bike engine'd 7
Hi myself and my dad thought we were ready to place an order on a zetec engine'd lotus 7 esk car but on sundays donnington show we saw a lot of
companies trying to sell us down the bike engined route. Were mainly going to use it for the occasional weekend and evening blat around town and
possibly the odd track day, so whats best for that sort of use?
Having only ever been used to car engines are bike engines going to be easy for us to work on, look after and get parts for?
If we didnt opt for a zetec what bike engine is the best of the bunch to go for?
Thanks in advance for any help
Adam
[Edited on 17/9/07 by bassett]
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donut
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:27 PM |
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Try and get a ride in a bike engined car (BEC) as they are marmite, you either love them or hate them. Also depends what you intend doing with the
car. If it's for the road then a car engined car (CEC) in my opinion would be best.
cue the BEC boys..........
[Edited on 17/9/07 by donut]
Andy
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andywest1/
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TimC
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:31 PM |
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I've had one BEC and hated it on the road but loved it on the track. I'm building an out-and-out track BEC now but would have a car
engine on the road.
Part of that may be due to my lack of self control and high propensity to pick-up speeding fines mind you.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:33 PM |
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I love my CEC, suits me great as a regular car around town, nice on a cruise and still good fun on track. However the BEC's are damn fast.
Horses for courses and as donut says - worth getting a ride in either for comparison.
Some BEC's will be perfectly fine as regular use cars too. They sound great but can get tiresome (allegedly).
There are no right and wrong answers in building your own car. Far too many options to consider up front though.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:35 PM |
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Where are you based? If around Midlands etc there may be a few manufacturers you could call on for a pre-arranged run out. Mac#1, Mk and MNR are all
close enough to do in a day.
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smart51
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:35 PM |
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First of all, welcome to the forum.
Second. Shh! This is the biggest source of arguements round here. Do a search and you'll find loads of BEC vs CEC arguements.
Thirdly, both are good. You can hardly go wrong.
Yamaha's R1 seems to be the best power per £ with the least hassle and has lots of fans. Pre 95 blades are popular because the don't need
a cat for SVA and just work in a car, but are down on power. ZX14 and hyabusas are popular for their higher output but are expensive.
Parts are easy enough to get and I rebuilt mine using a haynes manual having never done engine work before.
Finally, Bike engines are lighter than cars (60kg vs 150kg including clutch and gearbox). They have lots of power (circa 150) And sound great at
full throttle. The power band is wide and tractable. Car engines come with a reverse gear and a conventional H pattern gearbox. They have a heavier
duty clutch and cruise at motorway speeds at a civilised 3000 RPM rather than 7000. For cruising and touring a CEC is probably best. For high energy
blasts and track days, a BEC gives more speed for the money. For the ultimate performance, say 250 BHP+ the CEC comes into its own again. 1.8 zetecs
are cheap, very cheerful and 125 BHP is not a small amount for a seven.
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coozer
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:36 PM |
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Here we go again.... wait for it...
Recommendations will be argued over by the BEC v CEC owners...
Its really up to you, do want a screaming banshee that chucks gearboxes and cranks out regular or a relaxed mile muncher. Can you live with 10,000
revs in town or cruise along gently with no stress?
IMHO a BEC has the edge on the track but is more fragile. They make great trackday toys but CEC's are less stressed and more suited to day to
day road work and can be just as much fun with a big horse power motor.
Just wait now for the song......
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:37 PM |
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Something to possibly consider
Even remotely thinking about any motor sports use? i.e. Hillclimbs or sprints?
If so it's well worth having a look at class breaks, as they currently are up to 1700cc, 1700cc and over, for car derivied engines only - in
most parts of the country.
This is for "Roadgoing specialist production" which is the class where most 'locaterfields' end up
Motor bike engined cars end up in sports libre up against Radicals and the like.
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worX
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:55 PM |
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Hi and welcome - I am a true BEC devotee, mostly because that is what I love! Not just because I'm following a crowd. And because you do
state in your post that you are going to use it in a specific manner then a CEC might be best for you!?!
The best thing for you to do is to get a spin out in both. You could try putting your location in your personal details and you might get a few
offers?
I have done quite a few miles in mine now and I don't regularly chuck out gearboxes and cranks, and neither do I do 10,000 revs through town - I
also haven't heard of many other BEC owners that have/do either of these, and I think, Adam, this is where a lot of the conflict comes from.
Anyhoo - if you are local to me, I would be happy to take you out in mine!
All the best,
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Its really up to you, do want a screaming banshee that chucks gearboxes and cranks out regular or a relaxed mile muncher. Can you live with
10,000 revs in town or cruise along gently with no stress?
[Edited on 17/9/07 by worX]
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BenB
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:58 PM |
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It is an unfortunate fact that BECs are insured at 150% of the CEC rate......
Hence me paying shed loads for what in fact is a 100Bhp Locost....
when I finally get round to strapping the blower on the engine it gets really expensive!!!
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graememk
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 02:58 PM |
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i have a cec and have used a nissan turbo engine which is fine for me and i love it to bits. has lots of bhp.
however my next 7 (if i live long enough) will be a r1 bec, as for me the enjoyment is leaving boy racers at roundabouts and bec's are very very
very quick off the mark.
i do use my car for work sometimes though and no revese will be a problem.
[Edited on 17/9/07 by graememk]
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welderman
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 03:24 PM |
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being a bec owner and ex biker (no bike at the mo).
I went for the bec because it's what i wanted from a car, months of research and phone cons with various kit companies, even down to test drives
inc a z-cars mini. For fun/smile factor it's the best source for it.
But all down to individual spec, my mate built a pinto engined MK, he likes it and is fast enough for him.
The choice is yours mate,.
50/50
phone a friend
ask the audience (team Hellfire)
Thank's, Joe
I don't stalk people
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=172301
Back on with the Fisher Fury R1
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Hellfire
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 04:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Here we go again.... wait for it...
Recommendations will be argued over by the BEC v CEC owners...
Its really up to you, do want a screaming banshee that chucks gearboxes and cranks out regular or a relaxed mile muncher. Can you live with 10,000
revs in town or cruise along gently with no stress?
IMHO a BEC has the edge on the track but is more fragile. They make great trackday toys but CEC's are less stressed and more suited to day to
day road work and can be just as much fun with a big horse power motor.
Just wait now for the song......
EDIT: to agree pretty much with WorX
Where on earth/in the hell do you get these statistics Coozer... whilst I agree that some are fragile, they hardly chuck gearbox's and
cranks!!! (very rare now!) regularly!!!
This statement is way OTT....
Also 10,000 revs around town??? WTF!!!!
As a BEC fanatic I would recommend you have a drive in both - take little/no notice of this OTT post.
For what you want it for, it would sound like you should go CEC, but try both you may (read:will) change your mind. Better to change your mind now
than the engine later, it's cheaper!
Steve
[Edited on 17-9-07 by Hellfire]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 05:13 PM |
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The only BEC crank failure I've had any experience of was the MK one at Snetterton, where a rod went out of the side of the casing - and that
was due to oil starvation as the engine hadn't been dry-sumped, they were running slicks and giving it some stick on the corners. With
dry-sumping, or ordinary tyres, or road use, then it wouldn't have happened (probably!).
My choice was CEC as it suited me - if the old x-flow ever gives up, then it may get replaced by a bike engine... or a zetec... or a 4-AGE... who
knows!
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Hellfire
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 05:20 PM |
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First of all, welcome to the forum......
With the sort of driving you intend to do, I'd go for a bike engine car. In fact, I'd go for BEC regardless but that's just me.
Performance for £, there isn't much that can touch a BEC. You won't be disappointed with any bike engine 900cc or greater. They're
extremely light, easy to work on, reliable if treated correctly and if you go for a common engine such as a Fireblade, parts are relatively cheap and
easy to obtain.
If you've never been out in a BEC, I'd strongly suggest you try one before you decide. They take some beating........
Phil
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coozer
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 05:30 PM |
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I have seen people regularly post on here with bike engine problems.
Personally as well I have seen two ZZR1100 becs chuck rods from the second cylinder. The bike is known for this but it is the weak point in a Bec. I
have seen one of my mates bikes do it as well though.
One ZX9 Bec that the crank siezed on the bearings and knackered itself and the rods.
Two Becs that have dropped gear selectors, one went round the crank and buggered the crank.
I know one guy who doesn't post on here is onto his third fireblade engine and the local bike breaker is laughing all the way to the bank.
Not to mention the problems with clutches....
There is a recent post in the last couple days about big ends going.... and some pictures of stripped dogs.
Now, don't get me wrong, its horses for courses. My last car, a Striker had a ZX9R engine in it and I'm an ex biker. I love bike engines,
in fact I just love engines!
I used to love going through the town centre at 10,000 revs in first gear on my old Z1000 that had a 4-1 with no silencer. Thats was in the early
80's mind.
I just think a newby should be aware of these possible downfalls when making a decision.
And I did say it was IMHO so if you want to take no notice then do so. Take it with a pinch of salt. Just giving the info that is being asked.
Regards,
Steve
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 06:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
It is an unfortunate fact that BECs are insured at 150% of the CEC rate......
Hence me paying shed loads for what in fact is a 100Bhp Locost....
Question is though - how much are you saving due to the cheaper road tax of the smaller capacity engine?? Add tax and insurance together and what the
true difference?? Small I recon???
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adithorp
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:22 PM |
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Try and get a ride in one of each... and then choose a BEC!
adrian
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Two Becs that have dropped gear selectors, one went round the crank and buggered the crank.
LOL Steve, that one reminds me of the classic F1 reason for retiring being an "electrical problem" - after the con-rod went through the
wiring loom
In reality though, you've highlighted one ZX9 failure you know of with an unknown sump / baffle arrangement, plus a couple in ZZR1100 engines
which as you say also happens in the bike which suggests maybe that engine isn't the best choice to start with.
The blades can certainly be pretty reliable albeit the gearbox and clutch isnt the strongest, but if the chap you speak of has honestly blown up two
and is onto his third, Id think there's either something wrong with his install, something wrong with his driving, or something wrong with the
engines his local scrapyard are supplying him
This has got me thinking though, given that a lot of people subscribe to the fact that a bike engine is a great track tool, maybe there's
comparatively more BECs on trackdays than most car engine'd Locosts hence more perceived failures?
Im not saying thats definitely the case, but it would be interesting to do a survey to determine the amount of each that get on track and the average
track miles of each car type because I suspect those with engines like X Flows and Pintos on average may well do less trackdays / track mileage than
the average BEC.
cheers
Chris
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Hellfire
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:46 PM |
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Just as an aside, we have NEVER had a problem with, or ever had to replace the original clutches on either the first Blade engined Indy or the
current ZX12R. Fit heavy duty springs to start with and you'll have few problems.
Phil
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bassett
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 10:35 PM |
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Cheers for the input everyone certainly isnt going to be an easy choice and its given us a lot to think about. I'm goin to try a get a test
drive in a BEC. Hopefully we'l be 7 owners soon.
Thanks again
Adam
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