Flick
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| posted on 8/11/14 at 09:32 PM |
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ford xflow, worth keeping?
Hi guys
Just bought a project and considering stripping back to chassis for repairs. Same time considering engine and box etc.So just wanted to know anyone
opinion on this or somewhere I could find out. Looked briefly on web/bay and couldnt find anything similar.
ford 1.7 x flow built by rat racing in 2007. Briefly it has roller rockers, steel con rods, accralite pistons, steel crank, special camshaft, ap
racing clutch, twin dellorto 45s, dry sump system and tank, omex 200, alloy low profile sump, alloy bell housing, type 9 quaife s/c, c/r long first
with quick shift and quiafe gear lever. Full new race loom, shift lights thing. Race manifold and silencer, 2 gallon foam filled tank, redtop fuel
pump.
Cant remember what else but have three pages of rebuild spec to it. Never been on road and only used for sprints since 2010/2011 I think. Very little
mileage since build, I reckon it would be hours rather than mileage. Still in car and runs well. Rolling road 157 at 6k earlier this year.
..Don't know anything about these, really only bothered with bike engines. Although had brief fling with a pinto once. Can't take it out
as not road worthy. Opinions? Any good? Worth keeping in track day car? Value to put for sale if not?
Just don't want to do all the work on chassis put xflow back in and regret not changing engine.....
[Edited on 8/11/14 by Flick]
[Edited on 8/11/14 by Flick]
[Edited on 8/11/14 by Flick]
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Flick
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| posted on 8/11/14 at 09:47 PM |
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Just found some sprint times it has done 2011/2012 with current chassis set up. Maybe help track day guys out there to judge a si don't know if
these are any good? Car is going to be used as my first track day toy......
Thoresby 48.84
Anglesey International 121.13
Curborough long 61.72
Shelley 33.83
Mira 53.89
Hardwood 63.29
Mallory 62.26
Blyton 71.36
Will see if I can find anymore.
[Edited on 8/11/14 by Flick]
[Edited on 8/11/14 by Flick]
[Edited on 8/11/14 by Flick]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 8/11/14 at 10:30 PM |
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157bhp is reasonably hot for a Crossflow (to the extent that I'd be just slightly sceptical of the accuracy of the rolling road, if
it's showing that figure at only 6K rpm).
If the figures are accurate, then expect it to be a little intractable at low revs, so perhaps not the best engine for road use (though the Omex will
help - I'm used to Crossflows with clockwork ignition!), and the fuel consumption on twin 45's will be fairly awful... that 2 gallon tank
will get you about 30 miles between refills. 
The 4.7 CWP will be very short geared - useless for circuits or road use - so stick to the 3.89.
If it's for track day use, I'd personally be tempted to sell the Crossflow to someone who needs it for an Historic, and fit something more
modern and reliable, but they do have a lot more character than the current 16 valve, fuel injected stuff.
[Edited on 8/11/14 by Sam_68]
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19sac65
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| posted on 8/11/14 at 10:41 PM |
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The xflow has bags of character,sounds fantastic at full pelt and really suits a seven
However when i had a similar choice i decided to change for a modern unit
Its in a high state of tune and probably cost a bomb to get it there,or replace if it went bang
A zetec would produce similar power but with a more useable spread of power - unstressed,and cost about £100 if you blew it
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Flick
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| posted on 8/11/14 at 11:06 PM |
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Thanks guys. Think the bill for just the engine work came to about 4.5k !! Was slightly worried about using it for regular track days. Think it might
be better placed somewhere else if I'm honest.
P.s removed text about crown wheel pinion as thought some might get upset it was in wrong section.
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steve m
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| posted on 8/11/14 at 11:21 PM |
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157 , for a crossflow ??,
Ive had a 1691 done to the max, with twin 40 webbers, and only managed 140,145vseems to be around the max you can get so your engine must be worth10k
Steve
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
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Sam_68
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| posted on 8/11/14 at 11:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve m
157 , for a crossflow ??
Full race, with a lumpy enough cam, you can get quite a bit more than that (ultimate specs have seen in excess of 190bhp), but they would be
undriveable on the road, very expensive, very fragile, and make the power at much higher revs.
I'm certainly a wee bit dubious of that sort of power when it's claimed for 6K rpm, but the spec. of the engine does sound quite good.
It begs the question why peak power would be at 6K on an engine built to that sort of spec. with steel rods and crank... even my last Crossflow (circa
155bhp, and a pain in the ass for road driving, if I'm honest) revved to 7,800rpm to make its power.
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Flick
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 12:09 AM |
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Like I say, don't know owt about these.
Take it 157 bhp 6k rpm is not commonly got from the xflow.... oh its at the rear wheels if that makes a difference. Have the paperwork to confirm
engine rebuild and rolling road. even the number confirms - starting rat####. Rolling road place was - skip brown. Cheshire. Done a quick google and
they seem quite well respected among pug fraternity. Can only say that the guy who paid for it all is in america now but I can contact him if needed.
Found out the guy who built it was mike Tatt. Last owner used for sprint and he said it was built for low down torque and that it had never been taken
above 6k by him or guy who paid for it. Think this is why r/r was done at 6k maybe? God knows how much he spent on the engine and box in total. Think
I better add all the invoices up - Only took notice of the big one at 4.5k tbh.....
Think I'm going to have to sell it and buy something less worrying. Any advice on price of eng or box etc or someone/somewhere that would able
to help me out with this.
(Would keep the box but reckon that whine of s/c will drive me mad!)
Thanks guys
[Edited on 9/11/14 by Flick]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 12:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Flick
..... oh its at the rear wheels if that makes a difference.
It turns it from implausible to impossible, I would suggest. 
I've never seen a Crossflow that could make anything close to that figure at the rear wheels, at 6K rpm.
Reputation doesn't guarantee the accuracy of a rolling road, mind you - I had my car set up on Dave Bogg's rolling road. One of Best in
the business at setting up Webers, was Dave, but you had to take it with a very large pinch of salt when your Crossflow engined car was trying to
climb off the rollers with the needle nudging over the 175bhp mark... the numbers don't really matter beyond offering a benchmark for
comparison.
And I can sympathise with you on the straight-cut gear whine - my last Westfield had a Hewland LD200 transaxle, and that was like sharing the cockpit
with one of Black-and-Decker's finest!
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 12:36 AM |
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Back in 1980 I was allegedly getting some where close to 180 out of my Xflow in my Mk1 Cortina. But it was not cheap then. 1662cc via Lotus Twin cam
pistons, machined flat then deck heighted, then the block machined down to give 11:1 CR. All rotating/moving internals lightened, crack tested, harden
and balance. Full race cam. Full race (flat face) head. Piper Ladder Alloy rocker box, aftermarket electronic ignition, boosted spark. Twin 40 DCOE
taken to max choke bore. 4 branch (4 into 2 into 1) exhaust until under car then 48mm splitter into twin exhaust pipe (1 either side) exiting through
Jag E-Type rear boxes (straight through). It would rev to 8000 in top with a 3.7:1 diff which gave a top end of 140mph. At the time it was quicker
than a plod 2.8i Granny (I know because one tried to catch me over a 10 mile local road and he couldn't until I stopped at my G/F's road
and he made a point of telling me. the best he could get me for was allegedly crossing a double white because he could not get closer than 12 cars
behind). The trouble was 10k to an engine and gearbox rebuild. 
Lurvly motor, how I wish I still had both.
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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Flick
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 01:49 AM |
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Hmmm....
So where to go from here, if it looks like the figures don't add up. Either way its going, not for me way too much trouble. But id like to know
abit more about it. Think I'll give the guy who built the engine a call see if he remembers it. Maybe shed some light..
Thought I'd write out some of info on invoices, spec of the engine etc for you guys to look over, see if anything else doesn't make
sense
Thanks matt
Roller rockers
Ap clutch cover
Up clutch plate
Cosworth release bearing
Steel u pulley
Forged 83.5 acralite pistons
Steel farndon con rods 4.9
H/d STD main bearings
H/d STD big end bearing
Bronze thrush washers
New timing chain
Comp gasket set
Rat racing rocker cover
Inlet valves single collet 9/32
Ex valves single collet 9/32
Valve springs gold
Valve tops
Special one off can shaft timed 106.106
Can followers
Bronze valve guide
ARP bolt flywheel
Oil pump rebuild
Bore block and balance crank
Omex 200 IGN module
Throttle pos sensor
Omex loom
36.1 crank wheel
Remote filter housing
Twin dellorto 45's serviced this year. Twin throttle link
Quaife s/c/c/r type 9 rebuilt last year. So only done about 50 miles I reckon. But can't find receipt
ITG mega flow filter new last December.
Oil and filters changed every four events.
Race manifold and can meeting noise regs
Will sift through invoices see if f therir is anything else in relation to engine. Also haven't found anything else to do with dry sump system
other than tank?
Found some more info in invoices. Apparently engine is a one off race prep kent xflow built by crossflow legend mike TARR (not tat) Very rare engine
that as just engine would cost over £8,000 to replicate???!!! Their words not mine.
What on earth have I got here?
Someone help me out, was thinking yesterday if i dont keep it that I'd just stick it on eBay for 500 quid as complete setup see if I got any
takers
[Edited on 9/11/14 by Flick]
[Edited on 9/11/14 by Flick]
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snapper
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 06:30 AM |
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The spec is huge, I've seen high power Crossflows go for good money
As you are unlikely to utilise it for what it was built for use it as a money bank, get a new power plot and flog on
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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Sam_68
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 08:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Flick
What on earth have I got here?
You've got a race spec. Crossflow, by the sound of it.
The only thing that's not making sense to me is that power is being quoted at 6,000rpm... race Crossflows like to rev. I wouldn't expect
one to make anything like that sort of power, at the rear wheels, at those revs, and you don't go to the expense of building one with steel
internals and then limit it to 2000 rpm lower than the standard crank can live with.
Crossflows are picking up in value as they become rarer, so I'd say that it's worth a lot more than a £500 quid reserve on E-bay.
I'd try it with a reserve of £2-£2.5K and see if you get any bites.
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SCAR
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 08:54 AM |
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Not doubting the spec of your engine which is huge and I would guess at £1500 and possibly more (obviously I haven't seen it). The problem is
all the internals are such a high spec to allow the engine to rev much higher, 8k+ thus making a higher bhp possible. All the expensive steel and
cast bits are not really producing anymore power, they just allow the engine the capacity to rev higher and therefore make more power. I cant see how
it would be possible to get 157bhp at the wheels at 6k revs from a crossflow Add a turbo and nitrous? A friend of mine has £10k in a crossflow from
a top engine builder (in a mk2 escort classic race car) to get about the same power as yours it needs to go over 8k revs and is impossible to drive on
the road. £500 Bloody hell the rocker cover is probably worth £100 the 45s another £200 + Sell the complete set up for £500 and you will have chucked
a grand or 2 away!
Just noticed your in Notts forget the above its only worth £500 let me have your address, I'll be there this afternoon
[Edited on 9/11/14 by SCAR]
[Edited on 9/11/14 by SCAR]
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 09:01 AM |
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My old x-flow was 1860 cc based on an AX block. Steel rods, stroker steel crank, 85mm Omega pistons, steel flywheel, Weber Alpha ignition, twin
45's. Sold the lot for £3000.
When I used it as a sprint engine it produced a genuine 174 bhp at 7400 rpm. In that form it was pretty tractable and easily drivable on the road but
the downside was the cam used tended to eat the valves stems despite all the materials used being top notch and compatible. 500 miles between sets was
as much as I could manage but that was 2 years running so not really an issue at the time.
When I stopped sprinting we changed the cam to a more friendly version. At NMS it gave 165 bhp @ 6800 rpm but torque was way up in the mid range. In
7000 + miles it never needed any valves so problem solved.
I actually did a couple of sprints in it Curborough in that spec, old habits die hard. Oldish (but still the favoured make) tyres and a rusty driver
but it was actually faster than it was with 174 bhp.
The OP's engine should be quite valuable but you need to find the right buyer. Someone with a classic Ford who needs to comply with specific
racing regs is the obvious buyer but you need to advertise in the right places to find them, no idea where they are.
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SCAR
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 09:09 AM |
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He doesn't need to advertise it, I've said I'll be round with £500 this afternoon
1860cc is going to help, are you quoting wheels or flywheel?
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DW100
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 10:17 AM |
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I know Mike Tarr and Ratt racing. Used to go sprinting and hillclimbing with him and many motor club nights.
He's based down in Torquay, Devon.
Give him a call, he may buy the engine back, or know someone to place it with.
I know he has been involved with 190+ BHP crossflows but they usually rev much higher.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 10:32 AM |
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Sounds like the original car was quite a tool.
I would sell the engine, if you can get £2k+ for it that would pay for a st170 zetec (badged duratec) with the chester sports cars bike carb
conversion and a few other bits. This saves running any extra fuel lines, exhaust is on the right side and would give you around 190hpdecent amount or
torque, would be similar weight if not lighter than the xflow and be able to be driven all day, every day. Just my pennies worth.
[Edited on 9/11/14 by Ugg10]
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Nickp
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 11:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by snapper
The spec is huge, I've seen high power Crossflows go for good money
As you are unlikely to utilise it for what it was built for use it as a money bank, get a new power plot and flog on
+1 Take it somewhere for a power run. Preferably somewhere where you can gauge it against a known quantity on the same rollers ie. where 2.0 Zetecs on
throttle bodies consistently make 165bhp (just an example).
I'd also get them to do a compression test and record the results along with oil pressure and water temperatures.
Whatever this costs you will more than be added to the value of the engine when you sell it IMHO.
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 12:15 PM |
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Hi
Think we're missing something - what's it in?
Those venue times suggest something usefull, in which case it's 'value' may well lie in keeping it in the right car, i.e. you might
significantly devalue the car by doing an engine swap?
HTH
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scootz
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 12:29 PM |
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It's an old nail. Scrap value only. I'll save you the hassle of taking it to the scrappy by collecting it from you and
'disposing' of it. And I'll only charge you £50 for my time (cos I'm nice like that!).
It's Evolution Baby!
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Flick
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 01:41 PM |
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Thanks chaps. Way out of my depth here, glad I asked. Sort of jumped in with both feet not really knowing anything about it.
Currently in a West###ld chassis. Well I think its a Westfield. May well one of their race chassis, not sure. I know the engine sits further back
than normal but thats it. Have emailed west###ld to see if they can shed any light. Does need some attention and Some GRP shot needs replacing. But
engine looks mint and runs well. Also seems to have a lot of nice bits on it, trans x LSD, rose jointed, willwoods, minilites, braided lines
etc.....
Think chassis and body just been neglected over the years and now it needs work/money throwing at it.
Will take the advice and go and get it checked over and tested before I look to sell it.
Scootz, you buy that k series?
[Edited on 9/11/14 by Flick]
[Edited on 9/11/14 by Flick]
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scootz
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 02:32 PM |
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I did. Pick up on Friday.
It's Evolution Baby!
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DW100
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| posted on 9/11/14 at 06:25 PM |
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Mike Tarr is quite hands on and may well have done the engine gearbox and diff install and set up the chassis too. Definitely with a call to see what
he knows.
With an engine of this spec he would have done the rolling road session to set up the ECU and follow up aftercare.
Who was it originally built for? Would probably be someone who hillclimbed down here in the southwest.
Try Googling to find times for the original owner at Wiscombe park hillclimb .
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Flick
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| posted on 10/11/14 at 12:18 PM |
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I was after that engine. Let me know if your going to sell it. Heard a rumour you like to sell stuff on at discount prices?
Think the chap who had the engine built was Martin Vickery
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