RazMan
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 08:42 PM |
|
|
It's Turbo Time ....
... or will be soon I hope.
A certain individual who will remain nameless (you know who you are ) has got me thinking about strapping a turbo to my Duratec V6.
After doing a little research, I intend to use a T3 on my stock engine, with a small intercooler from something like an MR2 or RX7 mounted in the side
pod (front mounted is not an option) Running at 7-8 psi I should see around 275bhp at the flywheel  which should satisfy my lust for power for a
while anyway.
Can anyone give me any pointers regarding getting an oil supply to the T3? Also, is it feasable to stick it in place of the cat? It would make any
manifold fabbing a lot easier and the turbo would be in a place which gets some cool air.
Also, is mapping going to need a MAF connected to the ecu or can a turbo just be spliced in there somehow?
Any advice is appreciated - I'm no turbo virgin but it's been a while
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 08:52 PM |
|
|
Is a supercharger out of the question? I know its more work.
I just think that a supercharger would be more suited to a lightweight sports car. And you havent got that whole lag issue, which can be quite
significant, even with a small turbo.
Just a suggestion, and feel free to ignore me at will 
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
oadamo
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 08:57 PM |
|
|
http://www.rsbible.co.uk/duratec/duratec.htm
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 08:57 PM |
|
|
A valid point Flak and I was originally intending to fit a s/c but there's precious little room and I had to move the alternator to the best
space. I naiively thought I could hang it off the redundant water pump pulley, but then realised a s/c would draw about 30bhp ..... through a camshaft
So a turbo it is then .... despite the lag
oooh a new avatar!
[Edited on 2-5-07 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
se7ensport
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:04 PM |
|
|
in place of a cat is do-able, watch the link for an interesting place to mount turbos
linky
[Edited on 2/5/07 by se7ensport]
|
|
|
graememk
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:13 PM |
|
|
my hibrid t2 turbo has very very little lag
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:13 PM |
|
|
LOL I've seen that advert video a few times now - if only fitting was as easy as that!
So if that setup can get good boost with 'no lag' (yeah right) then my cat turbo stands a good chance as there is about 4 metres less
pipework to start with . I'm not after silly power and I'm prepared to live with a bit of lag.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
se7ensport
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:22 PM |
|
|
depending on which ECU you are running you could phase the boost in using the boost controller and remove lag pretty much all together by allowing it
to spall up from say 1500 rpm.
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:27 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
depending on which ECU you are running you could phase the boost in using the boost controller and remove lag pretty much all together by allowing it
to spall up from say 1500 rpm.
A boost controller won't let you spool up any given turbo at a lower RPM than it would otherwise do.
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:30 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by hicost
If you have a V6 I would use a twin turbo setup.
That would be my choice too, if there was enough room - even Noble have cooling issues with the front turbo. A single turbo will be far easier for me,
especially if I can insert it into the cat pipe. As I said earlier I will be happy with the lower power of a single turbo, as I am leaving the engine
stock - I don't want to stress it too much .... yet
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:33 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
depending on which ECU you are running you could phase the boost in using the boost controller and remove lag pretty much all together by allowing it
to spall up from say 1500 rpm.
I used to run a boost controller on my old 200SX and it made it easier to control the way that the boost kicked in - I had settings for wet and dry
days.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
se7ensport
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:35 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ]
A boost controller won't let you spool up any given turbo at a lower RPM than it would otherwise do.
I've still got a bit to learn on the turbo front, however, I was under the impression that you can phase in the amount of boost over a number of
RPM sites so you don't get such a lag.
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:46 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by se7ensport
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
A boost controller won't let you spool up any given turbo at a lower RPM than it would otherwise do.
I've still got a bit to learn on the turbo front, however, I was under the impression that you can phase in the amount of boost over a number of
RPM sites so you don't get such a lag.
They allow you to profile the boost curve, and modify peak boost in different gears, but a turbo needs a certain amount of exhaust gas flow to start
spooling, and a boost controller can't make the engine generate more exhaust gas off boost.
|
|
|
jambojeef
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:50 PM |
|
|
In my experience, unfortunately, I think if you get the siting and the matching of the turbo right the rest can be tweaked at a later stage without
too must extra time and money.
The cat install sounds like it could be a plan but that will certainly throw up oil drain and supply problems if your cat is mounted low.
I have had delay after delay owing to the oil feed and drain from my turbo and by far the best bet is to sacrifice some convenience of placement so as
to get the turbo high and with a downwards, straight and large dia. return pipe.
If you cant do this, you will almost certainly have to resort to a scavenge pump and its associated weight and plumbing / wiring demands which
themselves throw up issues of heat resistance and flow capacity.
If you are using the later Garrett GT series ball bearing turbos (which have lower spool up times compared to plain bearing turbos) you will need the
0.8mm restrictor available from ATP turbo amongst others.
Before you buy anything or commit to siting the turbo anywhere, think through oil supply and return - I didnt!
The cost advantage of doing it to my own design rather than buying a kit has more or less been lost owing to oil supply and return probs.
Phew! But its lots of fun......!
Geoff
|
|
|
Volvorsport
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 09:59 PM |
|
|
a std T3 turbo will be struggling at 275 bhp - a super 60 trim wuold be about right .
the noble engine manifolds are nothing to look at either .
two T2s from renault5 or 480 turbo would be brill on a v6 - theres vitually no lag .
you could even go for a turbo that comes off the vw/audi/seat 20v motor its very small and spools early , but they make good power also .
As mentioned you should really try to get looking at some compressor maps , so you know where you want to be .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 10:10 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by jambojeef
Before you buy anything or commit to siting the turbo anywhere, think through oil supply and return - I didnt!
Thanks Geoff - the voice of experience eh? My cat pipe is at least above the silencer but may not be high enough from what you are saying.
The turbo will be above the crankcase about level with the exhaust ports - would I need a scavenge pump?
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 10:15 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
a std T3 turbo will be struggling at 275 bhp - a super 60 trim wuold be about right .
I am not sure of the full spec but I believe it is a hybrid with some tweaks. Apparently it is good for a bit more too.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
Simon
|
| posted on 2/5/07 at 10:20 PM |
|
|
Raz,
If you're going to stick to standard compression (which with the low boost and intercooling you're talking of, I would), then you
shouldn't suffer lag, just a big whoosh when boost comes on.
My oil feeds are going to go straight into T-pieces cut into remote filter pipework and for water feeds, I'm going to use the supply and return
feeds that would have originally been used feeding the SD1 heater matrix.
Oil drains are a bit close, but will be ok - straight into sump with a gentle slope (my theory, hot oil, more viscious, flows better).
Hoping to have that lot sorted at w/end
Oh yeah, one last thing: Don't let anyone talk you into a twin set up. Two manifolds, two oil water feed/returns etc, pair of intercoolers etc
etc.
ATB
Simon
|
|
|
worX
|
| posted on 3/5/07 at 05:13 AM |
|
|
Hi Hicost,
I am really curious to know how it will spin the wheels off throttle?
Steve.
quote:
Originally posted by hicost
As it has been said, you need to match the turbo to the engine and your requirements, a smaller turbo will spin up earlier and give you boost from
below 3000 rpm, boost controllers cannot make a turbo spin up quicker, they just regulate what the turbo has to offer.
WRC cars run a restrictor that in effect can produce better torque and maximise the boost. ALS will make up for any lag at lower revs, a good ALS will
spin the wheels in the damp off throttle around a round about!
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 3/5/07 at 06:57 AM |
|
|
Some great replies there guys - thanks very much.
Regarding oil feeds & returns, what is the best method with my V6? I imagine I might be able to tap into the engine's feed via an oil filter
sandwich plate but what about the return? Would I simply drill the sump and put a fitting in there?
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
nick205
|
| posted on 3/5/07 at 07:28 AM |
|
|
Do you have an oil cooler installed Raz?
If not are you likely to need one with the extra cooling demand on the oil?
Might be worth thinking about and plumbing one in while you've got it all apart. Obviously more space and air flow considerations, but easier
now rather than later.
Looking forward to followin your progress
|
|
|
garage19
|
| posted on 3/5/07 at 08:07 AM |
|
|
If you mount the turbo with the return below the oil level you will need a scavenge pump. Extra cost and if it fails… so will your turbo.
Forget all this talk about anti lag. To run it on a internally stock v6 and T3 is madness. The high EGTs will kill both.
You will need an aftermarket ECU. Forget any idea of running it on the stock management. High CR forced induction (even 7psi) engines need careful
mapping of ignition and fuel or you will suffer headgasket or piston failure very quickly.
Bear in mind that by fitting a turbo you are actually de tunning an engine by putting a restriction in the exhaust. Using a T3 with a small/tight
exhaust housing on a 2500cc lump will create an engine that will create a large amount of torque low down but the top end will (revvyness) will be
stunted and tail off very quickly. Is this really what you want in a very light car?
I take it you want to use the T3 from a cosworth? You need to look at the compressor maps for this and see if it will deliver enough volume of air at
your chosen pressure ratio. If you ran a a stock cossie T3 on your V6 at the pressures you are talking about I would estimate the max bhp to be about
230 bhp.
In short you need a larger turbo to suit your larger capacity engine. You can probably get an upgraded T3 with a .63 exhaust housing and a T34 front
end that would do the trick but you will be looking at several hundred pounds.
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 3/5/07 at 08:45 AM |
|
|
nick205 - I have a rudimentary oil cooler fitted. It is the stock Mondeo jobbie that is under the oil filter so I would imagine a better one is
definitely call ed for.
garage 19 - I thought the V6 would be fine on low boost. A GT28 should be good for 300bhp according to http://www.turbofast.com.au/TFmatch.html but I
am no expert which is why I am open to suggestions. I thought a hybrid T3 would do about the same amount of flow but maybe I need to study a few
compressor maps and recalculate. My V6 churns out over 200bhp at the moment so I was hoping for more than just 30bhp gain.
I know that Noble use twin turbos but I was under the impression that the internals were not modified much - maybe just lower compression pistons. As
I just want to run at modest boost levels I was hoping that I could leave the engine stock. I was intending to fit an EGT gauge as part of the setup
so I can keep an eye on levels.
hicost - Just did a search on Anti Lag and it certainly looks interesting but way OTT for what I am thinking. I am not going to race my car and will
be using it on the road as my daily driver. I am quite prepared to put up with a bit of lag for the sake of more power
[Edited on 3-5-07 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
worX
|
| posted on 3/5/07 at 10:34 AM |
|
|
for all (esp me!!!)
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/bangbang.html
quote:
Originally posted by hicost
Not got time to explain now but check out how Anti Lag works then you will say "ah yes"
quote:
Originally posted by worX
Hi Hicost,
I am really curious to know how it will spin the wheels off throttle?
Steve.
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 3/5/07 at 11:07 AM |
|
|
QUOTE "mounted on a street car a bang-bang system would destroy the exhaust system within 50-100 km"
Not exactly practical on a road car then
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
