DaveFJ
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 04:08 PM |
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Pinto cooling - AGAIN!
OK...
as some of you knwo I had a nightmare with overheating during my SVA yesterday...
so, here is a quick diagram of my system, question is - what did i get wrong?
it cools fine when you keep above 40mph but when staionary it boils over in a couple of minutes!
 
Description
As you can see it is a very simple system with the highest point on the top hose having a T piece with a 15mm hose coming off that back to the header
tank (goes through a 8mm ish restrictor)
fan is a fairly cheap one but it is sucking air through the rad as it should... however the vanes were not reversible so it is not
'optimal'....
All - sensible - ideas welcomed....
I have read the thread from the robin hood owners forum about this sort of thing but can't see how i can apply that logic to this as the rad
doesn't have an overflow...
[Edited on 9-5-08 by DaveFJ]
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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Macbeast
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 04:31 PM |
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At first sight if it's ok when you are moving, it would be inefficient fan.
However, do you not have water circulating via the inlet manifold ?
The small one from my pump goes to the inlet manifold (via the heater if there were one) and the bottom of the header tank is taken from a T on the
lower radiator hose.
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cryoman1965
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 04:33 PM |
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See attached diagram. This is the system i use. You dont appear to have a take off from the manifold around to the back of the engine to the water
pump.
HTH
Nige
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mad4x4
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 04:35 PM |
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Where is you fan Switch - Should be upstream (rad side ). thermostat .
Is you fan running ?
How big a fan you got and is it rear or front mounted.
Is the fan running in the right direction?
Does you fan run on when the engine is shut down (perm live not ign Live)?
What temp does you fan come in at ?
Is your pump working
Is your pump working in the correct direction?
My zetec will boil if the fan doen;t come on but will be ok if the fan starts - I don;t have a header bottle.
[Edited on 9/505/08 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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britishtrident
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 04:53 PM |
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You need a by-pass connection or the engine will over heat before hot coolant can warm up the thermostat enough to open.
On 1970s Fords the by-pass flows through the heater matrix which runs hot all the time. If you remove the heater or fit a heater with a water valve
you must fit a by-pass connection between the head (before the thermostat) to the water pump inlet or bottom radiator hose.
[Edited on 9/5/08 by britishtrident]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 04:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cryoman1965
See attached diagram. This is the system i use. You dont appear to have a take off from the manifold around to the back of the engine to the water
pump.
HTH
Nige
"That's the way to do it !"
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 05:06 PM |
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I had heared that but general overwhelming consensus was that it qwasnt needed based on the principle that if the water is below the operating temp
then the engine cant be hot enough to worry about! I know a LOT of people dont bother with any take off from the manifold - even if id did have room
to fit one! - I don't
fan is working properly and comes on @86 degrees. runs on after the engine stops. can't see how the mechanical pump can work backwards?
As I say - cooling is fine when moving and it is only when it is staionary that it overheats. therefore I don't think it has anything to do with
the thermostat (that opened long before)...
think I am going to try making some ducting around the fan so that it sucks air all across the surface of the rad.... maybe uprate the fan as
well...
now SVA is sorted i am also going to fit bonnet vets to get some extra engine bay cooling, but that is pretty irrelevant when stationary anway....
My oil cooler matrix is in front of the rad so i may have to consider moving that out of the way....
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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phoenix70
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 05:30 PM |
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You need to lose one of the pressure caps (the one on the radiator, replace it with a solid cap) Also for on the move make sure you duct all the air
through the rad rather than let it go by.
[Edited on 9/5/08 by phoenix70]
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Peteff
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 06:00 PM |
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Check you have the thermostat in the right way round and while you have it out drill a couple of extra 3mm holes in the flange to let the air up to
the header tank. I have a manifold connection on mine and I haven't seen one without but if it works then that's o.k. but where does the
hot water trapped in the head go.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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snapper
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 06:41 PM |
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The vflow through the head via the inlet manifold is very important, large heat differentials will cause problems with excessive local area hot spots
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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mat.price
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 07:29 PM |
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i am having the some trouble with my pinto engine getting to hot when moving as well as it sitting still
my pipe layout if different will this be the problem that mines over heating??
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 07:38 PM |
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as i understand it the flow through the head ,once the thermostat is open, has very little to do with the take off for the heater matrix.....
of the water flowing into the head only a little could be travelling down the small pipe to the heater anyway, therefore the rest of the water must
flow through the galleries. when you think about it there are several water channels surrounding each cylinder and these allow the water to flow from
the head to the block (I think thats the direction of flow?) thern the water thravels down through the block into the pump and goes out to the rad and
back round to the head again... the way i see it that means by blocking the heater take off you actually improve the coolant flow to the head....
I think my problems are little to do with that - although i am going to try removing my thermostat and see what happens.... If my problem was down to
coolant flow through the engine then surely it wouldn't cool efficiently at 30-40mph.......?
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 07:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mat.price
i am having the some trouble with my pinto engine getting to hot when moving as well as it sitting still
my pipe layout if different will this be the problem that mines over heating??
your header tank connects to your thermostat housing? how have you done that?
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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mat.price
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 07:52 PM |
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the small pipe from the thermostat is the some size as the header tank piper my header tank is from tiger
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 07:56 PM |
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must be a different housing to mine - no small pipe on there...
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 08:04 PM |
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OK... just been checking.... and I am wrong!
the flow is in the opposite direction... from the pump into the block and up through the galleries to the head then back out of the top hose to the
rad (bleed back to header tank at highest point of hose) from the bottom of the rad back to the pump with the header tank also supplying the pump...
all seems logical to me!
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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ragindave
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 08:06 PM |
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You should not have a take off from the thermostat housing this out let would have been for a temprature sender.
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 08:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ragindave
You should not have a take off from the thermostat housing this out let would have been for a temprature sender.
not on an EFi... temp senders are in the side of the block and in the intake manifold
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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vindicator
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 08:26 PM |
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Here is a photo of my efi and cooling.....as you can see my heater take off i have done with copper piping which goes to the other side of the engine.
This piping also has a T piece that goes to the bottom of the expansion tank. The radiator bottom house connects under the alternator (just below the
heater connection at the front of the engine).
The top expansion pipe goes along the rocker cover and joins the pipe going to the top of the rad.....
 
engine bay
HTH
regards
TimR
timr.spaces.live.com
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ragindave
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 08:30 PM |
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Thats right the senders are in the block but some after market thermostat housing are sold with a thread insert iI thought it may be one of these
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flak monkey
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 09:09 PM |
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Mine is piped up the same as yours Dave and I dont have any problems.
If you are coming to the diss meet on sunday feel free to have a look at my system.
My fan is on a manual switch. I leave it running all the time once the water temp reaches approx 80deg. I also replaced the stat with an 82deg one
from a fiesta instead of the 88deg standard pinto one.
Cheers,
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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jacko
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| posted on 9/5/08 at 09:23 PM |
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Hi this is how i have mineits been like this for 5 years
bottom rad to water pump
top rad to thermostat
out inlet manifold to top of header tank
bottom of h/ tank to 5/8 pipe on water pump
the header tank is a ford tank with a top that lets air in and out
i have no thermostat fitted
Jacko
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britishtrident
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| posted on 10/5/08 at 09:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveFJ
as i understand it the flow through the head ,once the thermostat is open, has very little to do with the take off for the heater matrix.....
of the water flowing into the head only a little could be travelling down the small pipe to the heater anyway, therefore the rest of the water must
flow through the galleries. when you think about it there are several water channels surrounding each cylinder and these allow the water to flow from
the head to the block (I think thats the direction of flow?) thern the water thravels down through the block into the pump and goes out to the rad and
back round to the head again... the way i see it that means by blocking the heater take off you actually improve the coolant flow to the head....
I think my problems are little to do with that - although i am going to try removing my thermostat and see what happens.... If my problem was down to
coolant flow through the engine then surely it wouldn't cool efficiently at 30-40mph.......?
Water on every european* engine flows from the bottom radiator to the pump inlet.
Then around the cylinders and up through the block to the head.
Once in the head it either flows through the by-pass circuit or into the top of the radiator.
The by-pass apart from opening the thermostat and avoiding hot spots in the the head keeps the bottom half of the engine warm and by blending with the
cold water from the radiator reduces the thermal shock when thermostat opens.
Running without a thermostat is not a good idea.
* Only a very few mainly General Motors US engine designs have reverse flow cooling.
[Edited on 10/5/08 by britishtrident]
[Edited on 10/5/08 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Schrodinger
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| posted on 10/5/08 at 12:43 PM |
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Are you sure your fan is blowwing in the correct direction, it sounds to me as if it is blowwing through the rad from behind and at low speeds there
is no cold air going through the rad but at higher speeds the air is being forced through by the movement of the car.
Keith
Aviemore
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 10/5/08 at 04:44 PM |
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OK.. been testing... replaced the stat - coz it was cheap and thought what the hell!
re-routed the pipe from the bottom of the header tank to the pump so that it didn't loop upwards so much...
ran it and it did get hot... at about 110 degrees i started to see some steam venting from cap. stopped the engine and both pressure caps blew in a
spectacluar manner! proper fountains of boiling water going up about 10 feet 
fan kicked in as it should at about 87 degrees or so and was working properly pulling loads of air through the rad...
fan carried on for a few mins after swithing engine off - as expected....
so why is my cooling so crap?
we have had the arguments about the manifold take off but that is just at warmup so irrelevant really... I know loads of others use the polo rads so
where have i gone wrong?
should i invest in an electric water pump?? at least it would run on with the fan after switching off...?
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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