garage19
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| posted on 12/6/05 at 09:41 PM |
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Having built and fetled a few bike engines in the past there was one thing that put me off going BEC.
The clutch.
If you see the grief that a few race starts can cause a bike clutch and thats only accelerating half the mass.
I just couldn't see how your average bike clutch could put up with launching 5-600kg plus the possibilty of two people.
Come on.... own up. How many BEC drivers have had clutch problems???
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billy
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| posted on 12/6/05 at 09:46 PM |
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or rectifyer problems too i dont want to seem thet im slagging BEC off, but when your 16 stone and got a real fat wife, and you want to go out
with your picnic basket on the back etc......... you know where im coming from. how well dos a BEC stand up to that then
luego-lo-cost finished,vauxhall 16v 2.0,twin 45s de-dion rear set up
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 06:15 AM |
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RGB series = "race starts" = uprated clutch springs = no problems.
Le Mans = 2 up = camping gear(plus beer) = 900 mile round trip= no problems.
Rectifier hot= not mounted on ally base= get a new one and mount it properly= problem gone.
silly billy.........
Its a proven fact you need around 400bhp in a CEC locost too be quicker than 0.9litre BEC around Donnington at least, and that was 2 up touching
130mph, aint that enough for most roads ?
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 06:15 AM |
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RGB series = "race starts" = uprated clutch springs = no problems.
Le Mans = 2 up = camping gear(plus beer) = 900 mile round trip= no problems.
Rectifier hot= not mounted on ally base= get a new one and mount it properly= problem gone.
silly billy.........
Its a proven fact you need around 400bhp in a CEC locost too be quicker than 0.9litre BEC around Donnington at least, and that was 2 up touching
130mph, aint that enough for most roads ?
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DarrenW
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 08:30 AM |
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Me thinks this is a post that will never end.
Car engines are cheap as chips, do the job, make a se7en very entertaining and faster than most production cars.
I, like a lot of other people, have never had a bike, wouldnt know what to do with one, find the idea of a bike engine a bit alien = choose car
engine.
Some people have serious budget constraints / family to think of = car engines can be cheaper.
Some people love bikes, love the sound, love cars with bike engines = choose bike engines.
Bottom line - horses for courses, no wrong answers just lots of variation which is why this forum works. There is always someone to help or a
different experience to share.
Oh, nearly forgot - bike engines are for puffs LOL
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ned
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:07 AM |
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I have been out in several cars, trhe isonblade tbh i expected to be quicker than it was  but jim's r1 phoenix was very impressive. I've
also driven and spannered on vauxhall xe race cars and watched them run alongside hyabusa engined radicals! A standard vauxhall on twin carbs
dyno's at 187bhp will beat a 1300 hyabusa engined radical prosport. A powertec 1500 hyabusa engined radical on an equal power to weight ratio to
a 240bhp vauxhall xe engined car, the xe car will win.
Take power to weight into consideration on a roadcar and the majority of time the bec will win, simple fact. I would personally put a fireblade/zx9
about the same as a standardish zetec/duartec/xe on carbs or throttle bodies at say around 180-190bhp. A zx12, hyabusa and possibly r1 I would say
you'd need a tuned 2ltr 16v cec to be quicker.
They each have their own characteristics which some see as advantages/other as disdvantages.
You can also argue the costs until the cows come home by the time you have a complete install with either 
Personally I prefer the torque you get from a car engined car (drove a diesel for too long ) but now i have a revvy petrol engine everyday car
I'm enjoying that just as much!
I'd also like to point out that for a turbo engined car to be quicker round a track it often needs to have twice as much power as a similar
naturally aspirated car to be quicker to counter the effects of turbo lag etc etc. Yes I kow hicost has anti-lag but I don't believe
you're allowed to use it on the track! Jasper's zx9 locost could keep up with hicost too, hicost's car has far more top end though,
how many locost's can pull 150mph+??
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Hellfire
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:07 AM |
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Some people have experienced problems with both clutch and rectifier.
However, clutch isn't like in a car. 20~30 minutes if you take your time can see replacement. Rectifier as Jon say's... mount it properly
and it isn't a problem usually.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:10 AM |
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To answer the clutch / weight issue, if you think about it, there's not quite such a difference as you first think. Take a typical bike engine,
say R1. The bike itself weighs ~190kgs, but when designing the drivetrain Yamaha will have looked at worse case scenario for the weight it can cope
with, so maybe assume a 90kg rider plus another 60kg pillion (plus some luggage if you like), which takes us up to ~350kgs fully laden.
Add to this that in the bike, its geared to ~180mph whereas in the car its more like 125mph so the bike is geared something like 40% higher. This
means you need much more clutch slip to pull away than if the bike was geared to the same 125mph, so overall even though the BEC is maybe 200kgs
heavier in most circumstances, the clutch doesnt really take any more abuse pulling away than if it was in the bike.
At the end of the day though, as others have said its horses for courses. However, performance per pound (and by that I mean overall track
performance, not just straight line grunt), I defy anyone to find a car engine that will touch most bike installations.
Chris
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ned
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:17 AM |
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chris, i would take you up on your offer, but i can't be bothered
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:30 AM |
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Hehe, Xe VX per chance? I guess I should have qualified my statement a little to say "off-the-shelf", if you went the DIY route with a
Megasquirt and home made TBs then you could do an XE cheaply, but its a lot of faff IMHO. There's also probably a few "oddball"
engines out there which could probably be purchased on the cheap but because very few people have fitted them into Caterfields, you have many more
hurdles to overcome and very little off-the-shelf manifolds etc to save money with.
I agree with your equivalents above, blade is about par with 180bhp CEC, so to get that from an Xe you need TB's or some tarty carbs, an ECU(?),
plus obviously a gearbox, so by the time you got all that lot I reckon you'd be more out of pocket than a £400 CBR1000 or £700 blade/ZX9
package, and spending nearer a £1000-1200 R1 package, which gives you ~160bhp and would blow any sub 200bhp CEC away.
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:37 AM |
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ill have to disagree on a turbo engined car needing twice the power - with small spooling turbo , high compression(relatively) , boost can be present
as low as 2000 rpm , make boost , make torque , go forward
are YOU calling my engine oddball
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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ned
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:45 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
are YOU calling my engine oddball
yes!!
but seriously, from experience of watching races, 280-300bhp naturally aspirated engined cars have beaten 500bhp yb cosworth engined cars...
Ned.
[Edited on 13/6/05 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 09:56 AM |
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i agree the added paraphanalia causes extra weight , in the particular example , of YB cossies they are laggy and harder to drive to boot and have a
weight penalty
newer turbo design is bringing NA and turbo closer together !! ie GT series turbo
in the turboed millington Darrian we were seeing full boost by 3500 rpm , hampered by a restrictor aswell.
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Peteff
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 10:34 AM |
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I wish you'd posted this before, I'm going to have to change all my plans now. Anybody want to swap a 1300 xflow for my ZX9R engine before
I make any more stupid mistakes.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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colibriman
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 10:49 AM |
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Pete...
I've got a RR merlin engine if your feeling like disapointment is looming with your ZX9R....
might need to check your welds and add an extra brace bar or 2 in the engine bay...
[Edited on 13/6/05 by colibriman]
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Hellfire
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 10:57 AM |
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Last engine I was working on...
Steering it may be more of a problem... not to mention stopping it.
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colibriman
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 11:03 AM |
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nice boost I bet....
what is it from?
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 11:09 AM |
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I used to work for the company that probably made most of the blades in that engine, at anything from £200-2000 per blade, servicing costs might be an
issue
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NS Dev
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 12:26 PM |
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Ok, I think we all know that there is no one answer to this debate.
On a performance per pound spent basis, i think a bike engine is hard to beat.
On the other hand, for not a lot of money a car engined locost can be very quick. My car will have around 200hp (same spec as my other Vauxhall which
makes 176hp @ wheels, 204hp @ flywheel) and I hope to keep the weight down to 575 kg target ish. This gives me around 360 hp per tonne which is a
competitive figure, considering the car is only really for road use anyway!
I am fully aware of the advantages of bike engines, as I race in autograss where they are used VERY extensively and where the whole bike engine in a
car thing first began!
I am also aware of weaknesses with the clutch assmeblies, which normally involve replacement heavy duty clutch baskets and uprated springs.
There is no one answer to the debate, both sides have advantages and disadvantages, but yes, in terms of pure power to weight ratio achieved per pund
spent, it's pretty much impossible to beat a bike engine.
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Dale
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 01:04 PM |
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A question for Ned and maybe others, I am using a 2.3 l ford factory turbocharged. 190 hp at factory 10lb boost normally set up to run around 20 and
with a holset hx35 holding together to 30lbs if your running a very big amount of fuel through them. Its looking like I will need to do a rebuild or
replace on my garret t3 (side play is getting a bit much in it) The t3 will get me full boost around 3k, I couild go with the other turbo that cam in
the car an ihi and get boost to about 18 lbs in the 2- 2500 rpm or go with a holset which are cheap as dirt for turbos and get about 25 lbs at around
3200. Since I am new to running a car with lag or racing I thought I would bounce this off of the people who know. I will probably limit the power
to about 25 at the wheels which any of these will do with little effort. Stock bottom end and only mild porting with a holset I have seen put 420 hp
to the ground.
Dale
Thanks
Dale
my 14 and11 year old boys 22
and 19 now want to drive but have to be 25 before insurance will allow. Finally on the road
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billy
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 05:58 PM |
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The good thing about the old xe POWA is that if mine goes bang, its gonna cost me about 200 quid and i have another 2nd hand lump cos they are going
real cheap now. its all the other bits you need to get it to work is the expencive bit so i can happly thrash the pants off mine and know what ever
happens it aint gonna bust the bank but if i was gonna live on the track i would go BEC oh and dont call me silly again buster ........
luego-lo-cost finished,vauxhall 16v 2.0,twin 45s de-dion rear set up
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Hellfire
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 06:02 PM |
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CEC is more likely to go bang as not many Kits have a reliable japanese car engine...
<runs for cover>
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 13/6/05 at 06:27 PM |
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hmm , volvo mucho reliable .
Regarding the Holset queries , a lot of volvo guys over there are fitting them , theyre cheap , and provide a lot of boost , you need to be running
above 16 psi for them to be effective . if i could find one cheap here , i know i would do it , but then i have a fully rebuilt Turbo Technics Rs 500
cossie T4 turbo , with a 360 trust washer , ready to go .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Rorty
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| posted on 14/6/05 at 04:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by billy
...but when your 16 stone and got a real fat wife...how well dos a BEC stand up to that then
Loose some weight you lard arse and ditch the fat passenger and you'll see the benefit of the BEC.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 14/6/05 at 08:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by billy
The good thing about the old xe POWA is that if mine goes bang, its gonna cost me about 200 quid and i have another 2nd hand lump cos they are going
real cheap now. its all the other bits you need to get it to work is the expencive bit so i can happly thrash the pants off mine and know what ever
happens it aint gonna bust the bank but if i was gonna live on the track i would go BEC oh and dont call me silly again buster........
hmmmmmmmmmm!
I know that I extol the virtues of an XE engine (I have several of them) but I won't pretend that you can get a good one for £200.
Yes the other bits that don't break are the expensive bits but those cheap £200 engines on ebay are knackered, just fit for rebuilds, and that
is mucho expensive, try £500 for a set of pistons for a start (better than the £700 from vauxhall though)
Yes, the £200 one will no doubt run, they rarely break completely, but just like a smoky old pinto, it will make little power and be generally
knackered!
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