beaver34
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 06:59 PM |
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cooling issues
hi guys, hope you can help me, ive a 1600 zetec se engine in a shawspeed car, now im having over heating issues when sat on idle, its get hot very
quick and within 5 mins is in the red on the guage, but the header tank is flat cold, but if i rev the car to say 4k for 30 seconds the temp drops
down and it was fine when driving on the rolling road last week, any suggestions?
ive removed the thermostat and its the same, and refit it and its the same, its like there isnt enough pressre to shift the water round all the pipes,
thanks al
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 07:01 PM |
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is the belt the right way round
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beaver34
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 07:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mangogrooveworkshop
is the belt the right way round
yeah im sure, ill check from looking at another engine though
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beaver34
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 07:12 PM |
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yeah belt is on the right way round, i bet the pump blades have had it,
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austin man
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 07:23 PM |
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have you got the correct pump fitted ?? the usual pump is the escort item as it turns the opposite way to the mondeo pump
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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beaver34
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 07:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by austin man
have you got the correct pump fitted ?? the usual pump is the escort item as it turns the opposite way to the mondeo pump
its a zetec se, the yamaha engine, not the same as the 2.0 and 1.8 mondeo engines, and im running standard belt setup and tensioner
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beaver34
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 07:50 PM |
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thats how it runs on there, ill get some pics tomorrow of the rest of the pipe's and rad setup if that helps at all, BUT i have allways had an
issue with this engine running hot, i had in in a fwd car before and it allways ran hot in that till it was revved, but not as bad as this is
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Madinventions
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| posted on 13/4/09 at 10:35 PM |
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Double check you've got decent flow around the block. Because the engine is aluminium, the waterways can corrode really quickly if someone has
used tap water to top it up at any point. Also, only use aluminium radiators and pipes - don't use any steel!
Had a very similar problem in a previous Zetec SE.
FYI: My Zetec runs at 85-95 degrees on the road, and the fan switches on at 104 degrees and off again at 99. On the Ford temp gauge, it's
always on the 'O' of 'NORMAL' with the fan switching on in the 'R'. Never got near the red with mine.
HTH,
Ed.
http://www.madinventions.co.uk
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beaver34
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 06:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Madinventions
Double check you've got decent flow around the block. Because the engine is aluminium, the waterways can corrode really quickly if someone has
used tap water to top it up at any point. Also, only use aluminium radiators and pipes - don't use any steel!
Had a very similar problem in a previous Zetec SE.
FYI: My Zetec runs at 85-95 degrees on the road, and the fan switches on at 104 degrees and off again at 99. On the Ford temp gauge, it's
always on the 'O' of 'NORMAL' with the fan switching on in the 'R'. Never got near the red with mine.
HTH,
Ed.
http://www.madinventions.co.uk
ill give it a good blast through to make sure its all clear tonight, rad wise whats the best setup, hot in from engine at top or in the bottom and out
the top, as the outlets and inlet are both on the same side so i can run it either way round, thanks
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flak monkey
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 06:49 AM |
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If I recall correctly the zetecs are fitted with quite a high temp stat as std, something like 92 deg. Its probably just opening too late and because
the cooling system in sevens arent generally all that good it cant get rid of the heat before it boils up.
I had similar probs with my pinto with a std stat (88deg). Changed it for an 82 deg one and it solved the problem.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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beaver34
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 06:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
If I recall correctly the zetecs are fitted with quite a high temp stat as std, something like 92 deg. Its probably just opening too late and because
the cooling system in sevens arent generally all that good it cant get rid of the heat before it boils up.
I had similar probs with my pinto with a std stat (88deg). Changed it for an 82 deg one and it solved the problem.
David
yeah but its doing it with no thermostat in, it does it with a normal one in, and it does it with a normal one with a 3mm hole in, its like the pumps
not got enough pressure to dive the water round, unless its reving abit higher, when you do rev it all is fine, but if you let it idle for 5 mins its
goes off the scale temp wise
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Madinventions
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 10:17 AM |
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My Zetec SE is fitted to a Mojo so it's rear engined, but the layout should be the same...
The pipe from the thermostat/pump goes to the bottom of a VW polo radiator, then back from the top radiator pipe to the engine just above the gearbox.
The heater hoses are also plumbed in to a heater matrix from a Mini but these are often just connected together as a bypass. The header tank is
tee'd in to the return hose from the radiator at the lowest point, and the top of the tank goes to the small pipe above the exhaust manifold.
The fan in mine is controlled from the Ford ECU but I have also fitted a VW fan switch into the radiator just to blank the hole - it's not
connected to anything electrically.
If I sit at 3000rpm for about 10 minutes (SVA emissions test) the maximum temperature reached is 105 degrees and is fairly stable. The radiator fan
was running at this temperature and I also had the heater switched on. Zetec's do run hot, but it should never get to the red.
My fan is mounted on the rear of the radiator and pulls air through. It takes about 20 seconds for it to reduce the temperature from 104 degrees to
99 (and then it switches off) at idle.
There are photos on my website if it helps.
http://www.madinventions.co.uk
Ed.
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Madinventions
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 11:57 AM |
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You may also want to check this out... it's a Ford Technical Service Bulletin.
http://www.fordclubtr.com/forum/index.php?s=76a4e91d41ae401de1806bd57488ae83&act=attach&type=post&id=6834
Ed.
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beaver34
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 05:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Madinventions
My Zetec SE is fitted to a Mojo so it's rear engined, but the layout should be the same...
The pipe from the thermostat/pump goes to the bottom of a VW polo radiator, then back from the top radiator pipe to the engine just above the gearbox.
The heater hoses are also plumbed in to a heater matrix from a Mini but these are often just connected together as a bypass. The header tank is
tee'd in to the return hose from the radiator at the lowest point, and the top of the tank goes to the small pipe above the exhaust manifold.
The fan in mine is controlled from the Ford ECU but I have also fitted a VW fan switch into the radiator just to blank the hole - it's not
connected to anything electrically.
If I sit at 3000rpm for about 10 minutes (SVA emissions test) the maximum temperature reached is 105 degrees and is fairly stable. The radiator fan
was running at this temperature and I also had the heater switched on. Zetec's do run hot, but it should never get to the red.
My fan is mounted on the rear of the radiator and pulls air through. It takes about 20 seconds for it to reduce the temperature from 104 degrees to
99 (and then it switches off) at idle.
There are photos on my website if it helps.
http://www.madinventions.co.uk
Ed.
ive got the same setup but in the front, but my pipes were the other way round, ive also got a lower temp thermostat from fords to fit, thanks for
your info
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beaver34
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 07:53 PM |
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right chanaged it all over, rad pipes, new thermostat, still the same its red hot going into rad, stone cold coming out towards the thermostat, water
pump looks fine i can see a little bit of it when thermostat housing is off all blades intact etc.... ill upload some pics of the setup later, what
shall i do next? thanks al
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beaver34
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 08:35 PM |
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here are the best pics i have for now, crap i phone
so it goes out of engine hot water on the gearbox side of the car, to the top of the rad, through the rad to the bottom and out to the thermostat in
the front of the engine where the water pump is, header tank runs on what would normaly be the heater hose i think into the engine, and from the head
it ges to the top of the header tank, that all seems fine but im still over 100-110 after 5 mins, the temp guage is taken from water straight out of
the engine before it makes it way to the rad, its in the alloy housing at the box end
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Madinventions
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 10:02 PM |
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It's kinda hard to see all your connections in the photos, but I'm not convinced about the placement of the header tank. I've sketched
my layout for you as attached.
There are 2 distinct loops in the system. The first is the heater loop which always has flow and is not controlled by the thermostat. The second is
the main radiator loop.
I couldn't spot the T-piece in your system, and it looks like the hose from under the ignition coil on yours goes to the bottom of the header
tank rather than to the bottom of the radiator as it does on mine.
 
Rescued attachment P1020771.JPG
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Madinventions
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| posted on 14/4/09 at 10:24 PM |
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Yep - the more I look at your layout, the more I'm sure that something isn't quite right. If our engines are similar (mine's a
1.25) then the black hose that goes to the bottom of your header tank should in fact go to the radiator. There should be a t-piece somewhere along
this line that then feeds off to the bottom of the header tank. This is the main coolant flow when the thermostat is open.
Your connection from the head to the tank (currently disconnected) looks right.
The blue hose that I think runs to your radiator round on the exhaust side is a heater pipe on mine. This should have a return route via either a
heater matrix or a straight connection back to the small outlet on the front of the water pump round the other side of the engine.
HTH,
Best regards,
Ed.
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beaver34
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| posted on 15/4/09 at 06:40 AM |
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the hose from the header tank is running to what would be the heater return so should just flow back into the system with no probs as far as i can
see, on your engine which hose does the hot water come from the engine? im swaying towards it being the water pump thats had it although it looks
fine, i tyhink it may just be spinning on the shaft and not turning the water round
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Madinventions
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| posted on 15/4/09 at 09:17 AM |
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Here are some pics of my engine just after it was pulled from the Fiesta donor and I've marked up the coolant flow routes for you. Your straight
connector with the black hose is absolutely definitely connected to the radiator on mine and the angled connector just behind it (towards the exhaust)
is definitely a heater feed.
You need to have some proper flow around the heater circuit so that coolant flows during engine warm up. Without this flow, you will get hot spots
and the thermostat may not open properly. Where have you connected the smaller inlet on the water pump to? There are 2 inlets on mine as you can
see, one is for the return from the rad, the other is for the return from the heater. If you're not using a heater matrix then you need to
connect the smaller inlet on the water pump directly to the angled connector under the coilpack to ensure good flow before the thermostat opens. The
bottom of the head tank needs to be T'eed back into the system somewhere and I used the lowest point which is the hot feed to the radiator.
There is no real 'flow' through my header tank, just the occasional spit and dribble from the head overflow pipe into the top of the
tank.
When my engine is running, hot water exits from the pipes under the ignition coil pack, goes around the heater matrix or radiator, then returns to the
water pump. The smaller heater hoses are warm to the touch in under a minute suggesting I have good flow. At idle, it takes about 40 minutes before
the thermostat fully opens and the main pipes start heating up. The return from the radiator is noticeably cooler than the flow out from the engine
showing that the radiator is doing it's job. After about an hour or so of idling, the fan kicks in for about 20-30 seconds to bring the
temperature back down and this then repeats every minute or two.
I can take some more pics of mine tonight if it will help?
Best regards,
Ed.
 
Rescued attachment COOLANT_FLOW1.JPG
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beaver34
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| posted on 15/4/09 at 09:50 AM |
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Heater return is blanked off, it's got an alloy housing made insted of plastic, thing is this is how all theshawspeed cars have run, and they
have never had a problem, if I had made this setup myself I would be changing it but it works fine in other cars
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Madinventions
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| posted on 15/4/09 at 10:10 AM |
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Ok, that makes more sense now. I've had a quick look at the Shawspeed website but there's not enough photos to really know what to do. I
think that because of the modifications to yours then you probably need to approach Shawspeed directly next?
Best regards,
Ed.
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beaver34
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| posted on 15/4/09 at 10:30 AM |
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I've allready been n touch with jon from Shawspeed, he is stumped like me, going to remove top hose tonight and run it to make sure I've
got water moving from the pump, thanks for your help
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beaver34
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| posted on 15/4/09 at 07:50 PM |
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righ removed top rad hose, ran engine, no water movment, not good, so ive taken the water pump off, which is a fairley large job, cambelt off etc....
hoping to find a shafted pump, but the pump is fine, so im back to square one, started testing the water route through the block to see if it was
blocked, from top hose runs straight to water pump, no probs there, ran out of time after that, so i presume the only thing left for me to do is make
sure water can get around o.k, then look at re plumbing it, any other ideas?
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craig1410
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| posted on 21/4/09 at 11:11 PM |
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Hi,
I've recently had a similar problem with a Rover V8 engine where it too was cooling okay at higher revs but not at lower revs/speeds. I think I
have fixed it by blanking off my heater circuit which was previously just looped with a piece of hose inlet to outlet. I think the water pump was
preferring to pump water round the heater circuit rather than round the radiator until the revs reached the point where the heater circuit
couldn't flow enough water and then the radiator started to assist. Obviously any water flowing in the heater circuit wouldn't be cooled
without a heater matrix.
I hope this helps,
Craig.
Edit: Sorry just read an earlier post where you said the heater hose is blanked off. I hope you have found an alternative solution.
[Edited on 21/4/2009 by craig1410]
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