mcramsay
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:27 PM |
|
|
Whats gone wrong here? any ideas?
Well, i found a few metal shavings on the inlet front cam bearing last night and a tiny amount of rust on the exhaust cam lobes, also a tiny bit of
white foam on the inside of the cam cover (exhaust side only) i put the rust and white foam (it was quite a small amount) down to condensation in the
garage. and i decided i would do some further investigations on the oil system today.
i ran the car up to temperature before draining the oil, so the engine was running for around 30 mins.
i drained the oil and removed the filter, cut it open and didnt find too much rubbish, if anything. i then inspected the oil and found it almost
swimming with minute metal particles.... i was not that worried as you could not even feel them if you rubbed the oil between your fingers, i assummed
that would be from the piston rings bedding in and that kind of thing, (bearing in mind this is the first oil change ive done on the engine which is a
brand new 2.0 zetec from gbsc.
anyway, i then whipped the scholar engines low line sump off and began to clean the muck from the bottom and too my horror i found these sat lurking
in the bottom of the sump.
so i then whipped off the cam cover again and found that there was a bit more foam on the inside than there was last night (the engine had just been
running bear in mind)
here are a few pics to show what i found- im not sure if is normal to see a small amount of foam ive seen cars with blown gaskets which are much much
worse and the oil that came out when i drained the engine was not emulsified atall...
after seeing this im begining to think something has gone tits up big time on the engine....so i removed the windage tray and inspected (what i could
see) of the crank bearing housings, webs and con rods, nothing looks out of place and also the fragments have a rough casting marks and are a lighter
colour to the metal on the underside of the engine...
so really i dont know where to go from here...im hoping the bits have somehow come loose from the sump as it is modified, but i dont really see how. i
just cant think where they would have come from, but ive never seen a zetec internally so i dont know. the casting marks make me think either an inlet
or exhaust port has cracked/come apart possibly but again i dont see how the engine would be running if that had happened....
please any ideas/theorys would be much welcomed. i dont really want to mess about with this engine at the moment. if its goosed i will be ordering
another new one pronto from GBSC. but obviously i odnt want to go spending 900 if i dont really realy have too. HELP!!
[Edited on 14/1/12 by mcramsay]
|
|
|
|
|
steve m
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:31 PM |
|
|
Your pics dont appear to work
They do now!
[Edited on 14/1/12 by steve m]
|
|
|
mcramsay
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:33 PM |
|
|
sorry it got a bit funny with me...should be working now!
|
|
|
steve m
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:35 PM |
|
|
I have not got a clue what those two bits are, they do not look like any engine bits ive ever seen
|
|
|
loggyboy
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:35 PM |
|
|
Some where in the engine , some bolts were too long and have broken part of the casing of the engine, this has 'popped' the ends off the
engine casting. Most likelt engine mounts, check their first.
|
|
|
mcramsay
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:37 PM |
|
|
i will go and check that now... i take it if i find that is the case then the damage is terminal?
|
|
|
stevec
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:37 PM |
|
|
Looks like a couple of bolts that are too long have punched there way through and broke off the the bits of metal.
Steve.
EDIT, cock, too slow again.
Agree with above
Steve
[Edited on 14/1/12 by stevec]
|
|
|
mookaloid
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:39 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Some where in the engine , some bolts were too long and have broken part of the casing of the engine, this has 'popped' the ends off the
engine casting. Most likelt engine mounts, check their first.
Spot on diagnosis 
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
|
|
|
Tatey
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:39 PM |
|
|
It's not neccesarily terminal, depends where the bolts are, and they essentially turn from dry bolts to wet bolts, a copper washer under the
bolt head should keep it sealed as long as it isn't in critical part of the engine.
|
|
|
mookaloid
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:39 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by mcramsay
i will go and check that now... i take it if i find that is the case then the damage is terminal?
Not neccessarily
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
|
|
|
mcramsay
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:40 PM |
|
|
looks like i might be forking out for a new engine... IF this is the case could this explain why im getting white froth at the oil filler cap?
|
|
|
loggyboy
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:42 PM |
|
|
If it was me i would clean out the sump, pick up pipe etc. once the offending bolt holes are found, use plenty of thread lock on those bolts to seal
them. Refil the oil and filter, maybe run an engine flush, change the oil and filter once more after a 50 miles or so.
|
|
|
Tatey
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:45 PM |
|
|
A bit of chemi-metal could be used as well to seal the holes.
|
|
|
mookaloid
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 04:51 PM |
|
|
I'd be amazed if the engine is scrap, it's unlikely to have any adverse effect and not likely to explain the white froth on the filler cap
which is just a little bit of condensation.
Just find where the studs have popped through and satisfy yourself that it's not critical. Worst case is you can repair the holes with weld but
this is not likely to be necessary.
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
|
|
|
Chippy
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 05:25 PM |
|
|
Totaly agree that it is very unlikely to be a scrap engine job, and that amount of foam in the rocker cover is just from condensation, I get a lot
more than that in mine after the engine has been standing for the winter. HTH Ray
To make a car go faster, just add lightness. Colin Chapman - OR - fit a bigger engine. Chippy
|
|
|
T66
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 05:41 PM |
|
|
Buy some cheapo oil from Asda etc, oil change and run it for a few hours. Drain and ditch the oil, have a rummage with a magnet see what you pick up.
Diesel engine oil has lots of detergent, seen it used on sludged up engines as a pre oil change flush.
A magnetic sump plug might help you.
Dont give up on the engine yet, its not dead.
|
|
|
mcramsay
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 05:47 PM |
|
|
well, ive checked the crank case and cannot find any evidence of splits/bolts that are too long, its completley normal. no engine mounting bolts
showing!
having a closer look at the fragments and looking at the ally head i would say im 90% sure thats where they have come from, the however the only stock
bolts i have removed from the head are the cam cover bolts, exhaust/inlet studs and bolts and the thermostat housing to fit the water rail. it cant be
the thermostat bolts, they would not have made it into the oil system, if they had i would have more prominent evidence!
so im thinking it can only be the inlet or exhaust. and looking at the curve and profile of the fragment this could could be a viable theory...i will
take the inlet and exhaust off tomorrow and see what i find. if i dont find anything i will be putting everything back together, putting my fingers in
my ears and singing "lalalala" hopefully the engine will pass an emission test and i can drive it until it goes bang and then swap it.
|
|
|
Bare
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 05:59 PM |
|
|
Sure look like Pop Rivet remains to me.
But then what in hell would have been in that engine that was held on by pop rivets ? a diy Windage tray?? Some bodged oil catch can gizmo?
[Edited on 14/1/12 by Bare]
|
|
|
AndyW
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 06:01 PM |
|
|
I would show these pictures to GBS, if they supplied you a new engine and this does lead to problems, they must have some sort of warranty. Did they
also supply the engine mount bolts? I would talk to them and see what they make of it. DONT scrap the engine.
|
|
|
mcramsay
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 06:02 PM |
|
|
they do look like pop rivets! but definatley are not, you can see where the hole has been pilot drilled, so it is definatley the end of a tapped hole.
|
|
|
Paul Turner
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 06:17 PM |
|
|
I would be very surprised if bits that size could get from the top of the engine into the sump, the oil returns just arn't big enough. There is
no way any parts from the inlet or exhaust could get into the sump without going via the cylinders and that could not happen. Are the fragments
magnetic i.e. are they iron or alloy.
Bit worrying if there is a noticable metallic particles in the oil. Rings don't normally loose metal as they bed in and bearings don't
either.
Are you sure the bits were not in the sump when you fitted it, did you carefully clean and prep the sump after it had been delivered, its not unknown
for rogue bits to get in during the packing process, they can be lurking in the packing material or box.
|
|
|
loggyboy
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 06:18 PM |
|
|
Are they magnetic? If yes then its block, if not then its head.
|
|
|
mark chandler
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 06:21 PM |
|
|
No need to scrap, plenty of engines have holes drilled and tapped all the way through to the water jacket, RV8 for instance, you just apply some
sealant to the threads of the bolt, hylomar blue for instance
Regards Mark
|
|
|
mcramsay
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 06:29 PM |
|
|
i am 100% sure the parts were not in the sump when it was fitted. i would not have a leg to stand on with GBSC. i bought the engine (and kit from
them) 2.5 years ago. (and ive still not finished!!!) the engine has only ever idled in the garage, never moved the car or had any load on it.
i mean ive removed the inlet manifold and fitted throttle bodies, ive removed the thermostat and fitted the raceline water rail, and ive removed the
stock exhaust manifold and fitted a GBSC manifold. also used a few head bolts for an alternator mounting bracket (will be checking that also) so as
for GBSC they will say the warranty is invalidated as ive changed the engine from the way it was sold. changed the sump also on it....
i personally dont see how these bits could have ended up in the sump, but i am sure they were not there when i put the sump on.. ive done the old
magnetic test and they didnt budge...they are definatley not cast iron.
|
|
|
T66
|
| posted on 14/1/12 at 06:53 PM |
|
|
Those bits are too big to have come from inside the head and past the valves, you would of heard when they did. Could they be non ferrous and from the
sump casting ? Does your sump have any studs etc that could of been overtightened. Hows the oil pump mounted in the block? Scabs from an over
tightened oil pump strainer, ie alloy
Without going back over the thread, is your sump off or did these come out in the oil drain ?
Im about to suggest the sump comes off for a peek.
|
|
|
