FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 08:36 AM |
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Aramid/carbon fibre sump?
I have an interesting challenge question that's kicking around in my head ... Is there a reason why one wouldn't make a aramid (kevlar)
sump, and I'm thinking for a duratec?
I am operating on the following assumptions:
1) aramid outer layers for impact resistance
2) CF / honeycomb inner layer for rigidity
3) choice of epoxy made specifically to not be damaged by exposure to oil
4) this is not for a bike engine, which tend to rely more on conduction cooling
I appreciate that there won't be any thing like as much conduction cooling through the sump, but most people tend to augment the cooling through
an oil-cooler which is active and more efficient.
I struggle to see an issue with this - any thoughts? It could turn out to be way lighter than my current gated sump
Thanks
Mark
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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nick205
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 09:02 AM |
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My first thoughts are would it offer enough weight saving over the normal pressed steel or cast alloy item in relation to cost? The money would be
better employed reducing weight higher up the car's CoG IMHO.
I'd imagine you'd need to think about metal inserts to provide a reliable drain plug thread. Possibly for the bolt holes as well to allow
sufficient tightening force without damaging the material.
Pressed steel and cast alloy are pretty easy to modify to suit different installations like a 7 type.
I'm guessing if the OEMs could make them from plastic materials like inlet manifolds they would to save cost (maybe they already do, but
I've not seen one).
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omega0684
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 09:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nick205
My first thoughts are would it offer enough weight saving over the normal pressed steel or cast alloy item in relation to cost?
my thoughts exactly, for a Pinto application the sumps are pretty light, and when you start chopping them up they become even lighter 
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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Carbonman
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 09:18 AM |
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With the use of some core materials/Resin Infusion and post cured at a temperature above its normal operating temperature it is certainly possible.
Done right you could see a decent weight saving but it won't be cheap Sounds like an interesting project. One of those " I said I could
do it " ones. Don't know what experience you have with composites but if I can advise/help at all just let me know.
Regards Warren
[Edited on 3/6/13 by Carbonman]
Carbon Copies Ltd
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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loggyboy
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 09:26 AM |
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In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one
(even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.
Mistral Motorsport
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 09:35 AM |
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Hi Warren
Thanks for the offer. I am about to rebuild my new duratec and have tig welded a gated sump for it (based on the revered flak-monkey design). Whilst
it's certainly up for the job, it's not the lightest. I appreciate that the original duratec sump is light but once you go transverse,
you're either paying £350 for an ally one, or less for a custom steel one with more weight.
My background in composites isn't much that's practical, but I have read a few good books and feel the urge to jump in. My initial start
is to replace the ally riveted on panels on my chassis with CF honeycomb panels, fully bonded in with the appropriate loctite to CF adhesive. This
will give me lots of additional strength for no weight gain.
I got to thinking from there, and about the hassle in making the sump and I thought "it's actually quite a simple shape to mold",
and I've got quite a bit of 3d cad experience so getting a mold cut, or making one from the sump I have may take a bit of time, but won't
be that hard a job.
I'd definitely go for resin infusion (have asked SWMBO for a vacuum pump for fathers day) and a cheap oven to bake a sump isn't difficult
to get.
I can easily see 2-3 kg being saved here, and I'd either buy or have ally hard-points machined for the mating surface.
Thanks for the encouragement. I've also found someone selling a CF rocker cover, but that is way more effort and cost for something that is
already very light.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 09:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one
(even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.
Hi Loggy - would it though? Aramid is way stronger than steel (as in kevlar bullet proof vests).
Cheers
M
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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Carbonman
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 09:46 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Hi Warren
Thanks for the offer. I am about to rebuild my new duratec and have tig welded a gated sump for it (based on the revered flak-monkey design). Whilst
it's certainly up for the job, it's not the lightest. I appreciate that the original duratec sump is light but once you go transverse,
you're either paying £350 for an ally one, or less for a custom steel one with more weight.
My background in composites isn't much that's practical, but I have read a few good books and feel the urge to jump in. My initial start
is to replace the ally riveted on panels on my chassis with CF honeycomb panels, fully bonded in with the appropriate loctite to CF adhesive. This
will give me lots of additional strength for no weight gain.
I got to thinking from there, and about the hassle in making the sump and I thought "it's actually quite a simple shape to mold",
and I've got quite a bit of 3d cad experience so getting a mold cut, or making one from the sump I have may take a bit of time, but won't
be that hard a job.
I'd definitely go for resin infusion (have asked SWMBO for a vacuum pump for fathers day) and a cheap oven to bake a sump isn't difficult
to get.
I can easily see 2-3 kg being saved here, and I'd either buy or have ally hard-points machined for the mating surface.
Thanks for the encouragement. I've also found someone selling a CF rocker cover, but that is way more effort and cost for something that is
already very light.
If you have the vacuum pump already then I would say go for it  The biggest expense would be labour plug/mould making etc, your time would be free.
As you say with the correct choice of materials it would out perform steel or ally. Push the boundaries, you never know you may be onto something
Carbon Copies Ltd
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Carbonman
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Hi Warren
Thanks for the offer. I am about to rebuild my new duratec and have tig welded a gated sump for it (based on the revered flak-monkey design). Whilst
it's certainly up for the job, it's not the lightest. I appreciate that the original duratec sump is light but once you go transverse,
you're either paying £350 for an ally one, or less for a custom steel one with more weight.
My background in composites isn't much that's practical, but I have read a few good books and feel the urge to jump in. My initial start
is to replace the ally riveted on panels on my chassis with CF honeycomb panels, fully bonded in with the appropriate loctite to CF adhesive. This
will give me lots of additional strength for no weight gain.
I got to thinking from there, and about the hassle in making the sump and I thought "it's actually quite a simple shape to mold",
and I've got quite a bit of 3d cad experience so getting a mold cut, or making one from the sump I have may take a bit of time, but won't
be that hard a job.
I'd definitely go for resin infusion (have asked SWMBO for a vacuum pump for fathers day) and a cheap oven to bake a sump isn't difficult
to get.
I can easily see 2-3 kg being saved here, and I'd either buy or have ally hard-points machined for the mating surface.
Thanks for the encouragement. I've also found someone selling a CF rocker cover, but that is way more effort and cost for something that is
already very light.
If you have the vacuum pump already then I would say go for it The biggest expense would be labour plug/mould making etc, your time would be free.
As you say with the correct choice of materials it would out perform steel or ally. Push the boundaries, you never know you may be onto something
I already have a londitudinal sump that I could take a buck from although it would need some tidying up to get the nice shiny results, and I've
made two of these now (including a 10 degree offset sump as a special for someone) so I'm familiar with what the end result needs to achieve. I
think some aspects of manufacture would actually be easier - assembling the gates and cross-slats is a royal pain in the chuff, and unless the whole
thing is back-gassed (not practical) the weld finish isn't necessarily beautiful when welding from the inside to the outside.
Now, the cross-slats can just be bonded into place.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:07 AM |
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As a follow-up, the raceline ally sump to do this job is £423. It's a sophisticated piece of kit, with removable parts.
I think "watch this space" is in order ...
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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Carbonman
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:11 AM |
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You could compromise and just do the internals in composites. Epoxy Resin bonds really well to ally. May have to look at any potential issues with
differing rates of expansion though?
[Edited on 3/6/13 by Carbonman]
Carbon Copies Ltd
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Carbonman
So, I'm thinking aramid layers on the outside, honeycomb, CF on the inside. Overall thickness no more than 2mm. Then machined hard points (I
already have the sump mating face in CAD for the steel ones) to attach to the sump, and for the dipstick.
The gates would be bonded in, and the windage tray could be removable. To achieve this, I would probably fix ally cylinders, tapped for a screw, bond
them into the slats and then bolt through - the bolts would be locktited in for security.
Thoughts?
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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Carbonman
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:22 AM |
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There is a product called Soric which is great core material. Once infused it has great compression strength, but very light (little resin uptake)
Carbon Copies Ltd
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:24 AM |
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Doesn't that stuff also act as a channel for the resin to run through?
M
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:33 AM |
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The sump also serves as the only oil cooler, which is the main reason some manufacturers fit alloy sumps on performance models even though they
are heavier than the paper thin steel sumps fitted to most modern cars.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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blakep82
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 10:43 AM |
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I've got an axle for a 1986 ford aerostar van in the garage, and the diff cover is made from some sort of fibre composite. Not sure what
exactly, but it can be done.
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The sump also serves as the only oil cooler, which is the main reason some manufacturers fit alloy sumps on performance models even though they
are heavier than the paper thin steel sumps fitted to most modern cars.
I think I'd need to experiment on my engine to see if the composite sump with the oil-cooler would be sufficient. Bearing in mind most
performance engines come with an oil-cooler I don't think I'd be adding more weight.
What would be easily possible would be to fit an internal thin aluminum plate on both sides (not the bottom), with a matching vaned plate on the
outside. The two could be connected by a couple of pieces of aluminum dowell which is bonded in place, and the plates thermally coupled to the dowell
using the same thermal seal stuff from CPU coolers.
It may be way easier to go for a slightly larger oil-cooler though.
I think experimentation is the way ahead. Oil temp curves captured with engines under load. Steel sump and composite sump with oil-cooler.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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loggyboy
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one
(even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.
Hi Loggy - would it though? Aramid is way stronger than steel (as in kevlar bullet proof vests).
Cheers
M
Bullets dont have half a tonne of car propelling them in to the kevlar though, Just a lot of momentum and a few grams of bullet.
Also a kevlar vest isnt isnt designed to retain fluid, its designed to stop the bullet penetrating the body behind the vest, if the vest splits or
cracks it will have still stopped the bullet. Those vest also weigh a lot beacuse of the number of layers of kevlar.
To be fair, its quite unlikely you would strike the sump, and then unlikely that you would strike with another force to puncture it. Just one of those
'what if' situations.
Mistral Motorsport
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
In addtion to the above weight arguments, even if reinforced, If you clouted a composite sump its going to split... end of, at least with steel one
(even alum to a certain extent) its likely to bend first.
Hi Loggy - would it though? Aramid is way stronger than steel (as in kevlar bullet proof vests).
Cheers
M
Bullets dont have half a tonne of car propelling them in to the kevlar though, Just a lot of momentum and a few grams of bullet.
Also a kevlar vest isnt isnt designed to retain fluid, its designed to stop the bullet penetrating the body behind the vest, if the vest splits or
cracks it will have still stopped the bullet. Those vest also weigh a lot beacuse of the number of layers of kevlar.
To be fair, its quite unlikely you would strike the sump, and then unlikely that you would strike with another force to puncture it. Just one of those
'what if' situations.
True enough, and let's face it, if your sump is hanging so low a brick can it it, you're already courting trouble. Similarly if
you're rallying, you will have a disposable sump guard as well.
I would expect a well made composite component to out-perform an ally one, especially if there's kevlar in the mix to provide some impact
resistance and flexibility. Carbon will shatter when pushed beyond it's limits which is why I proposed going kevlar/carbon
It's all good stuff though to help me refine my thoughts ...
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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Carbonman
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Doesn't that stuff also act as a channel for the resin to run through?
M
Yep, so you don't need the flow mesh required for normal infusion on areas where the Soric is used. Once cured you are left with little resin
honeycombs
[Edited on 3/6/13 by Carbonman]
Carbon Copies Ltd
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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britishtrident
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
I've got an axle for a 1986 ford aerostar van in the garage, and the diff cover is made from some sort of fibre composite. Not sure what
exactly, but it can be done.
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time
Wound glass-kevlar composite propshafts were gaining favour in the 1980s, Matra used one on the very rare 4x4 version of the Renault Espace.
Around the late 1980s a lot of work was also done on composite springs, the sulcated spring was developed as replacement for steel coil springs by
Jim Thompson at Paisley Uni.
[Edited on 3/6/13 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
The prop shaft also isnt metal, but some sort of plastic and very light. Must be ahead of its time
carbon prop's have been around for a while - but they arn't cheap 
http://www.sevenspeed.co.uk/collections/carbon-fibre/products/caterham-7-composite-propshaft
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blakep82
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:44 AM |
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Its not carbon, but it has aluminium ends, green and red spiralled banding, and a clear plastic laquer.
I'll get a photo late. Always wondered what it was
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:51 AM |
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The sump may also help strengthen the bottom end, i.e. stopping twisting of the block. No idea if this is relevant to your engine or not but some
bullet sumps are used in this way.. Designing a composite one to do the same would be more difficult.
IMHO you are better off looking at other areas for weight saving; not to say you can't do it but not sure it's worth the hassle..
Dan
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/6/13 at 11:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
Its not carbon, but it has aluminium ends, green and red spiralled banding, and a clear plastic laquer.
I'll get a photo late. Always wondered what it was
It'll be made the same way as the carbon ones, but with different fibers (probably glass & kevlar like BT says)
filament wound tube linky
[Edited on 3/6/2013 by mcerd1]
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