davidimurray
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 04:46 PM |
|
|
Duratec Conversion - How Much ???
How much does everyone reckon, or how much have you spent swapping out your old carbed engine for a Duratec?
Just did a guesstimate and came up with the following -
Duratec Engine 300
Sump 350
Cable Bellhousing 200
ST150 Flywheel 50
Clutch VCK726 50
Starter Motor 50
Clutch Cable Use exisiting 1.3 capri
Clutch Arm Using existing
Release Bearing Use existing
Bike Throttle Bodies 100
Manifold for TBs 50
Air Filter Use Exisitng
Modify exisitng Pinto exhaust 50
Megasquirt + Wiring 300
Fuel Tank with int swirl pot 125
Fule Pump & Regulator 100
Total 1725
Gallery 1 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116893465324.130778.601005324
Gallery 2 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.245243755324.181913.601005324&l=a9831a9319
Gallery 3 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.440671625324.232627.601005324&l=3f0d42c523
Gallery 4 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.490098255324.297598.601005324&l=efb083b7df
Gallery 5 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150244028550325.366987.601005324&l=583fd5cd3a
Gallery 6 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150550640070325.430417.601005324&type=3&l=fe779b358c
Duratec Engine Swap https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f " target="_blank"> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f
|
|
|
|
|
ali f27
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 06:12 PM |
|
|
Would add alternator small denso will need engine mounts pipe work etc
|
|
|
big-vee-twin
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 07:36 PM |
|
|
I reckon you will not get much change out of £2k.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
|
|
|
ceebmoj
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 07:39 PM |
|
|
you will also want,
Spigot bearing
EGR blanking plate
and don't forget that the water outlet is on the back of the engine.
edited to swap inlet for outlet after checking
[Edited on 21/1/14 by ceebmoj]
|
|
|
davidimurray
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 08:17 PM |
|
|
As a money saving idea what are the thoughts on Duratecs and bike carbs?
Gallery 1 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116893465324.130778.601005324
Gallery 2 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.245243755324.181913.601005324&l=a9831a9319
Gallery 3 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.440671625324.232627.601005324&l=3f0d42c523
Gallery 4 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.490098255324.297598.601005324&l=efb083b7df
Gallery 5 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150244028550325.366987.601005324&l=583fd5cd3a
Gallery 6 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150550640070325.430417.601005324&type=3&l=fe779b358c
Duratec Engine Swap https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f " target="_blank"> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f
|
|
|
big-vee-twin
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 08:25 PM |
|
|
FastDan has built a Duratec with bike carbs, seems to be pretty good, send him a u2u he will help you out.
He aslo makes the inlet manifolds, engine mount brackets etc for the Duratec.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
|
|
|
Andy S
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 10:21 PM |
|
|
Mechanical thermostat
|
|
|
big-vee-twin
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 10:29 PM |
|
|
If you can get hold of the ST 150 engine, it has a standard flywheel, the EGR blanked off already and mechanical thermostat i.e. its not controlled by
the ECU.
The water outlet is at the rear of the cylinder head.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
|
|
|
snapper
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 10:34 PM |
|
|
As a balance I spent 2K on a high spec Pinto and still didn't get anywhere near the bhp of a standard Duratec with just a set of cams
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
|
|
|
MP3C
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 10:47 PM |
|
|
I am upgrading my pinto at the moment and with all the hassle and "extra" things to buy for it, it would be about the same price to drop a
duratec in right about now... lesson learnt!!
I priced what it would cost me to drop a Duratec in before I started the pinto and it came to about 1.6k (holding out for bargains which would be
possible if you are willing to wait)
Matt
|
|
|
ceebmoj
|
| posted on 21/1/14 at 11:32 PM |
|
|
Is there a preferred starter, or just the 2.0 Duratec starter?
|
|
|
dave r
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 06:42 AM |
|
|
depends on the flywheel....
st150 is different to dual massed mondeo flywheel, they can be made to fit, you need to machine a bit off the mounting feet.... mines done that way
I'd love to give my imaginary friend a great big hug,
but this jacket makes it impossible.
|
|
|
mcerd1
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 08:12 AM |
|
|
was someone not supplying the steel sump (/kit) that flak monkey came up with ?
(it used to be 3GE components)
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=137649
if no one is supplying them them anymore you could always drop him a u2u
[Edited on 22/1/2014 by mcerd1]
-
|
|
|
davidimurray
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 09:13 AM |
|
|
Had another look at my list this morning -
For a 'basic injection install' i reckon you need £2K minnimum :-
Duratec Engine 300
Sump 350
Cable Bellhousing 200
ST150 Flywheel 50
Clutch VCK726 50
Starter Motor 50
Clutch Cable Use exisiting 1.3 capri
Clutch Arm Using existing
Release Bearing Use existing
Bike Throttle Bodies 100
Manifold for TBs 50
Air Filter Use Exisitng
Modify exisitng Pinto exhaust 50
Megasquirt + Wiring 300
Fuel Tank with int swirl pot 125
Fule Pump & Regulator 100
EGR Blanking Plate Make
Engine Mount Arms Make
Engine Mount Rubbers 40
Small Alternator 50
Spigot Bearing 15
Mechanical Thermostat 40
Cooling System Mods 50
Total 1920
If I went for bike carbs AND made my own sump I reckon you could get that down to around £1300.
Duratec Engine 300
Sump 150
Cable Bellhousing 200
ST150 Flywheel 50
Clutch VCK726 50
Starter Motor 50
Clutch Cable Use exisiting 1.3 capri
Clutch Arm Using existing
Release Bearing Use existing
Bike Carbs 100
Manifold for TBs (fab) 50
Air Filter Use Exisitng
Modify exisitng Pinto exhaust 50
Megajolt Use existing
Fuel Tank Use exisitng
Fule Pump & Regulator 100
EGR Blanking Plate Make
Engine Mount Arms Make
Engine Mount Rubbers 40
Small Alternator 50
Spigot Bearing 15
Mechanical Thermostat 40
Cooling System Mods 50
Total 1295
Gallery 1 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116893465324.130778.601005324
Gallery 2 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.245243755324.181913.601005324&l=a9831a9319
Gallery 3 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.440671625324.232627.601005324&l=3f0d42c523
Gallery 4 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.490098255324.297598.601005324&l=efb083b7df
Gallery 5 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150244028550325.366987.601005324&l=583fd5cd3a
Gallery 6 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150550640070325.430417.601005324&type=3&l=fe779b358c
Duratec Engine Swap https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f " target="_blank"> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f
|
|
|
FASTdan
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 09:16 AM |
|
|
We did ours several years back for about £1200 - and that was paying £300 for a 2.3 engine (that was a bargain) so I think you are about right as ours
is bike carb'd (which saves you a few hundred in management, fuel system hardware and mapping).
That was a DIY gated and baffled sump also - fair few hours but saves a lot of money.
On Bogg Bros rollers it was doing 165bhp at the wheels. Thats a standard 2.3 on 40mm ZX9R carbs, pinto 4-1 manifold and a an aftermarket light weight
flywheel. How accurate the rollers are, well who knows but it drives really well and there's not much on track that it cant keep with. I suspect
larger carbs would open the top end up a bit on a 2.3 (work in progress!).
NEW danST WEBSITE NOW LIVE! Bike carbs, throttle bodies and more......
http://www.danstengineering.co.uk/
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
peter030371
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 10:06 AM |
|
|
I was thinking about doing this to my old Sylva Striker last year. With some DIY on sumps, exhaust etc I thought it would cost about £2k...with carbs
the real saving was only £200-£300 and I just know I would forever be kicking myself if I went down that route just to save a few hundred pounds 
I am now not going the route of converting my old Striker and I am building Clangers Duratec car instead (I just fancied starting from scratch and
having IRS). My RAW Striker has an ST150 engine...you do get more for the money if you hold out for one of them as a starting point i.e. solid
flywheel, starter fits, EGR blanked off and the 'piece de resistance'...it has the high port head which according to SBD is worth 10-15bhp
more on a like-for-like build 
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 02:28 PM |
|
|
I was thinking of making composite carbon/aramid sumps for this, based on the flak-monkey sump (I've made a couple of them, and one canted at 10
degrees as well).
If there's enough interest, I'll work up a batch - I'm definitely doing one for my duratec (currently on a flak sump, welded in
stainless steel).
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
peter030371
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 02:48 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
I was thinking of making composite carbon/aramid sumps for this, based on the flak-monkey sump (I've made a couple of them, and one canted at 10
degrees as well).
If there's enough interest, I'll work up a batch - I'm definitely doing one for my duratec (currently on a flak sump, welded in
stainless steel).
I could be interested depending on the technical risk/ cost/ timescale 
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 03:07 PM |
|
|
The layup I'm thinking of is
- Two outer layers of carbon for the bling factor
- 1 layer of e-glass to provide a little flex and to balance the cloth thickness over the core
- 3mm soric core for way increased strength
- 2 layers of aramid for impact resistance
That would then be high-temp resin-infused under vacuum and cured to be stable at 130C (way higher than the oil in a duratec).
The outer dimensions are close to the flak sump, and it will retain very much the same amount of oil. The interior gating will be e-glass (could be
carbon but more expensive and not necessary to add strength here). The top cover will be demountable. The dipstick take-off would be stainless steel,
bonded to the sump.
All gated joints would be bonded with locktite specific epoxy adhesive.
This sump will radiate less heat than an ally-steel sump so you will need an adequate oil cooler. I am working on a design with a thin ally plate on
the bottom, bonded on to the composite and passing through the sump to a thin ally plate on the inside of the sump. This would then conduct heat into
the airflow without compromising the structural integrity of the sump.
It would not come with the gasket retaining relief that is machined into the current sumps.
Price-wise - not sure yet. I'd be thinking about £275 - £300. The flak sump I made in stainless comes in at 5kg, and I would expect this to
come in at 2kg, if not less.
To give you an idea of the costs inherent in these prices: the composite fuel tank I'm making is a more complex part, but so far I've put
probably 80 hours into making the pattern/buck before I turn it into a part for me. The time and effort just to make the mould for this tank will
probably run to £500 minimum at market rates. As such, I'd need to get a few orders to make it worth diverting from other projects.
risks you run
I think it will be as strong as an ally sump, and guarantee it will take my weight standing on it.
Your cooling needs to be adequate - there is a certain amount of conduction/convection cooling from the current sump
You will need to cut the oil-feed pipe down - I can supply instructions for that, and the ford part number if you want a new one.
If you massively over-heat it (as I said, go crashing through the 130 degree ceiling) then you run the risk of the epoxy softening - this is a fact of
life with all composite work, and I'm using the high-temp stuff specificially designed for this. Once it cools down, it re-hardens.
So, that's my thinking ...
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
mcerd1
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 03:50 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
currently on a flak sump, welded in stainless steel...
This sump will radiate less heat than an ally-steel sump so you will need an adequate oil cooler...
I guess it all comes down to how much of an issue cooling the oil is on a duratec, but my first thoughts are:
- if cooling the oil is an issue why would you use stainless steel ?
even mild steel is a significantly better thermal conductor, and while I'm sure that paint / powder coat will have an impact on this I
can't imagine it would make it any worse than stainless...
- if your sump saves you 3kg, how much weight does the oil cooler add back in ?
i accept that this is meaningless if you need the oil cooler already, unless it means you need an even bigger one...
-
|
|
|
peter030371
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 04:05 PM |
|
|
Furyrebuild....thanks for the extra info.
I want to use the Modeen oil cooler I already have and not try and squeeze an oil cooler into an already tight fitting nose cone on the Striker. I can
get a shortened ally sump for £324 (if I was feeling rich) so I will either stick with that or get a welder friend to Tig me up a mild steel sump
Now if you could do a tarty CF low profile cam cover for the Duratec I think more people would be up for that As far as I can see the only option
currently for this is the Raceline one at circa £350 
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 04:36 PM |
|
|
Well, you won't go wrong with the Flak sump, and it's a good design, quite sane to fabricate. If you have access to a CNC press brake then
I would advocate revisiting the design to do some of the welds with bent steel rather than two pieces welded together - just a lot quicker - I tigged
mine and it's a little timetaking because you have to weld an inch and let cool to be sure you don't warp the mating flange.
I'm obsessing about removing weight from my fury, so for me this is an easy 3kg to remove.
I had my eye on CF top covers (not the black one, but the ally top cover) and I've seen them for £500. I haven't decided on a design yet
because it will need to be quite strong. what's more, the ally cover to make the first part from will need to be sacrificial - the cover is
finished as it was sand-cast and this won't do for the chap aspiring for a visually pleasing finish. It will need filling and polishing first.
From that, there's no going back
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 04:41 PM |
|
|
good questions.
I chose stainless because it produces really nice welds and because it won't rust. It requires a little more patience when welding though
because it will warp that much more readily.
Powder is basically an epoxy plastic (apologies if I'm handing you eggs to suck) so that will insulate somewhat. Anyone running an engine that
is at all serious will also run an oil-cooler; I think I should have been a little more clear that you would need one, and I expect most people in
this game to have one. If you fitted a carbon sump and found temps ran a little higher, then an extra couple of rows would be enough. I agree the
weight of fitting an oil-cooling setup where non existed before would negate the weight savings of a CF/aramid sump.
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
currently on a flak sump, welded in stainless steel...
This sump will radiate less heat than an ally-steel sump so you will need an adequate oil cooler...
I guess it all comes down to how much of an issue cooling the oil is on a duratec, but my first thoughts are:
- if cooling the oil is an issue why would you use stainless steel ?
even mild steel is a significantly better thermal conductor, and while I'm sure that paint / powder coat will have an impact on this I
can't imagine it would make it any worse than stainless...
- if your sump saves you 3kg, how much weight does the oil cooler add back in ?
i accept that this is meaningless if you need the oil cooler already, unless it means you need an even bigger one...
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
edthedrummer
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 07:13 PM |
|
|
With regards to duratec engines, is there a particular version that is the better option? I know there's a choice of plastic cam covers from
later models as opposed to the aluminium cover on the old ones! But is there a better version?
|
|
|
peter030371
|
| posted on 22/1/14 at 07:56 PM |
|
|
Fiesta ST150 for the reasons listed above
|
|
|
