Billm
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 11:50 AM |
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Which Zetec SE to use
Hi, I have a 1971 Triumph Spitfire Mk3 with the standard 1296cc dual 1.25 SU engine. In fact I have 2 of these cars. Here's a photo in case you
are not familiar with the car :
In their day they were quite nippy weighing only 712Kg dry, but by todays standards their 75bhp is a bit lacking. So I am thinking of restoring one to
showroom condition with everything standard and lumping the other with a Zetec SE and making it "presentable" and use it as a fun run
around.
I know of a guy who put a 1.6 engine Zetec SE in off a donor Focus and used 3rd party ECU , thottle bodies etc and has had it dyno'd at 145bhp
at the flywheel but that cost quite a bit of money.
I'd like to keep my conversion as simple and as cheap possible.
I understand a 1.7 Zetec SE from a Ford Puma is 123 bhp as standard and that's plenty for me in this car. But I've heard comments
suggesting to avoid that engine due to the variable valves and also spare parts are "not cheap"
I'd like to buy a cheap donor car eg; Escort, Fiesta, Focus or Puma and installing the engine complete with modified bolt-on engine mountings
(so I don't fall foul of any MOT structural changes issues) and use the engine loom, ECU and all ancillaries as much as possible from the donor.
I'd prefer not to go down the route of throttle bodies and 3rd party ECU's if at all possible whilst they give a lot more power they would
also double the conversion cost.
I assume I'll have to fit a Type 9 Sierra gearbox and use a bespoke bell housing and hydraulic clutch slave cylinder. However if a Zetec could
be mated to the 4 speed with overdrive Triumph box that is already in the car then that would save me even more .. assuming it could handle the
increase in power.
I'm assured that the axle is good for 150 bhp and that the front suspension and disk brakes are good enough or can be upgraded if required
So my question is this. Which engine should I go for ? and which model donor car can I use.
Anything up to 150 bhp in standard format is good enough for me, I can't see me wanting to ever upgrade it from that spec. I'd like to
keep the cost as low as possible regarding any additional parts I'd have to buy for the conversion.
There isn't a lot of room under the bonnet as you can see so weight and physical size of engine would also be something to consider.
Any advice would be most welcome as I haven't a clue about the pro's and con's of Zetec engines
thanks
PS, I hope not to have to make any significant structural changes to the body/chassis and will also keep the original engine/box in storage so the car
could be put back to standard in the future if required.
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teegray19
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 12:05 PM |
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a bike engine would fit in it great 
Built Formular 27 with 1600cc crossflow, 1700cc 0 miles crossflow, Kawasaki ZZR1100
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mcerd1
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 12:08 PM |
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why not look at the zetec E rather than the SE ?
a focus spec 1.8 zetec E is only ~£600 brand new - and you could buy a complete focus donor car for less than that including the ECU, keys etc. you
need to make It run
(I just sold one for £300 with 6 months tax and test)
the bog. std. focus spec 1.8 is 115ps and some of the older escort versions are 130ps
the 2.0 has more torque - but the 1.8 is a nice revvy engine that can make almost the same power with the right cams 
as a bonus the zetec E engines bolt strait onto the std. 4cly bellousing - so no fancy aftermarket parts required
big_wasa is your man for using the donor's ECU:
see here: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=190440
[Edited on 16/6/2014 by mcerd1]
[Edited on 16/6/2014 by mcerd1]
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monkeyarms
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 12:09 PM |
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i have just put a 1.7 se from a puma into my kit car. For £250 i got -
Engine, gearbox, loom, ecu+key
staightforward to wire up, 123hp easy.
As for parts being expensive, really? its a mass produced Ford!
I would pick the 1.7, it is a really sweet engine, much nicer than my 1.4 zetec it replaced.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 12:35 PM |
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I'm in the process of putting a 1.7 Puma engine in my ford anglia but I have gone down the throttle bodies+ECU route but there are a number of
conversion on here (also look at turbo sport, there is a long thread about a Mk1 escort build on there) that use the standard wiring loom and ECU,
make sure you get the matching key/ECU/transponder though.
General advice is usually to go for the 1.6 as it easier in the long run to tune(cams, engine management etc.) but if you are not bothered about that
then the 1.7 should be great.
Other things to note are -
You will need to make up engine/gearbox mounts and the gearbox tunnel may need modifying
The 1.7 sump is different to the 1.6/1.4/1.25 but has reasonabe surge capability so no need to add extra baffles etc. Not sure on how the engine bay
is but you may need to modify the sump to clear cross members/steerign racks/ARBs etc.
As you have said the Type 9 does not bolt on and will need a new bell housing/clutch fork/release bearing - RWD Motorsport, ShawSpeed, Tiger Racing,
Caterham and Westfield all have them (getting mine from Shawspeed)
You may have clearance issues at the rear of the engine as there is a large casting that diverts coolant to the heater and acts as a mount for the
coil pack, I am getting a slimline version from Shawspeed for mine or you could do the mod that the other guy with the Spitfire has done (pictures on
his build site)
You will need a pinto 215mm clutch plate to go with the Type 9, supposed to work with the standard pressure plate
You might also think about upgrading the brakes as you ar looking to almost double the power of the car
You will need to get the end of the crank machined out to 21mm, the 1.7 SE is the only Ford engine I can find that has a 17mm spigot bearing cavity
(all others are 21mm) and so need enlarging to accept the 15mm Type 9 input shaft/pinto spigot bearing, not an expensive job but a PIA
Sorry, bt of a long list but these are the issues I have found (so far) trying to fit this in my Anglia.
All the very best with the project and do keep us informed.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Ugg10
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 12:58 PM |
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Having said all of that above - if you are after a cheap/quick conversion have you considered the 1.8l Mazda Mx5 engine/gearbox.
OK so it is an iron block but the gearbox is all ally so overall weight is not too much different. It will push out 140 HP all day, easy to wire, and
the gearbox is significantly better than the Type 9 (better ratios, better built) and you can pick the whole lot up for around £500 at a guess, you
may even get the whole car for that at a scrappers. Also, you may be able to use the diff with some customn drive shafts which if you are lucky will
be a LSD (look out for the torsen one on Jap import eunos roadsters). that would make a eally nice package with some uprated brakes.
Another thing to note is the Diff ratio and wheel size you are running in the spitfire, the Type 9 has a very short 1st gear as standard (unless you
have a long 1st or can find a long input shaft v6, both will cost, the V6 will beed a bell housing spacer as well) so if your diff is short it will be
almost useless - I have that dilema with my Anglia which has a 4.4:1 rear diff fitted as standard, great for the traffic light drag but cruising at
motorway speeds may be tiresome, one my list to sort out.
[Edited on 16/6/14 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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monkeyarms
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 01:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Having said all of that above - if you are after a cheap/quick conversion have you considered the 1.8l Mazda Mx5 engine/gearbox.
[Edited on 16/6/14 by Ugg10]
I agree with this ^^^^^
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Billm
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 02:21 PM |
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My local garage did mention a Mazda engine but I'd forgot about it.
With the cost of Type 9's on eBay it may be a cheaper solution especially as it wouldn't need the bespoke bell housing. Are there
different variants of the 1.8 engine as Wiki claims the 1.8 is good for approx 123 bhp, same as the 1.7 Zetec SE ?
Unlike guys that want to future proof their engine/gearbox I'm only go to do this conversion once so the actual solution be it Ford or Mazda is
flexible for me. I just want it reasonably powerful, to last and be cheap. A quick browse of eBay shows quite a few 1.6 Mazda engined cars but there
are a couple of 1.8 MX5 cars going for reasonable money although one states "smokes a bit on start up" which is a touch worrying
Never having owned a Mazda, are they reliable or in need for a rebuild if they have say 120k on the clock from a scrapper ?
re: mazda rear axle - sounds like a good solution but not sure how I would go about it. The Spitfire has a transverse leaf spring suspension that is
bolted to the axle ?
[Edited on 16/6/14 by Billm]
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 03:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Another thing to note is the Diff ratio and wheel size you are running in the spitfire,
Diff ratio is not an issue in the Spitfire. The Marina/Ital used the same diff/cwp assembly in an independent set up whereas the Marina/Ital used a
solid axle.
The Marina used 4.12 and 3.636 ratio's, the Ital 3.92 and 3.62. Vans had the 4.44 but HD vans had a bigger axle and something like a 4.7
diff.
The Marina/Ital diff is still used by Caterhams and although getting rare they are available.
Providing you don't use super sticky tyres or go above 150 bhp the diff is fine if correctly built. What normally kills them is oil surge which
will never be an issue with the Spitfire.
My original Caterham ran a Marina axle for 4 years on the hills and sprints. When I ran with 145 bhp and treaded stickyish tyres it was fine but when
I changed to ultra sticky Hoosiers the diff soon died mainly because of surge and not tooth breakage (twice). It did have a Quaiffe diff in it which
strengthens it a fair bit.
The Dolomite and 4 cylinder TR7's also used the same axle.
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beaver34
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 04:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by monkeyarms
As for parts being expensive, really? its a mass produced Ford!
I would pick the 1.7, it is a really sweet engine, much nicer than my 1.4 zetec it replaced.
i work for Ford and parts for the 1.7 are very expensive, it was not a mass produced engine in comparison to the 1.6 as it was only in a puma for 5
years.
an example is inlet gasket £10 1.6 vs £75 puma
my advice if going rwd would be 1600 or puma if its a good engine for a fwd or mid engined car due to the crank issues
either way any of the se range is a great engine and a good 20-40kg lighter than some other engines that people are putting in cars so its in keeping
with the less weight more speed ethic!
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Jenko
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| posted on 16/6/14 at 08:01 PM |
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I think if you plan to hunt for big power, the 1600 is the more tuneable. But, the 1700 puma can do 155bhp with the addition of throttle bodies and a
decent ecu.
Either way, both would be cracking in a spitfire.... :-)
MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/
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