wheelsinsteadofhooves
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| posted on 24/2/05 at 09:14 PM |
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relative performance
quite a basic question really - which one gives more seat of your pants driving -
stripped out race prepared 1300 crossflow, road/race eligable for 750 mc series - minimal seats, aeroscreen etc etc;
OR;
1800 zetec (megajolt), bit more by way of interior, windscreen, hood etc etc.
obviously very different beasts but in two minds as can go both ways now, literally 50/50 - any opinions??
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Stu16v
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| posted on 24/2/05 at 09:26 PM |
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Zetec.
Because it is far easier to unbolt all of the 'weight' and leave it in the gararge for the 'seat of the pants' driving
experience, than it is to upgrade the xflow with a powerful engine...
Dont just build it.....make it!
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Fozzie
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| posted on 24/2/05 at 09:31 PM |
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IMO
Both will give you 'seat of ya pants' driving.
It very much depends on how your engine and car is set up, and of course your capabilities.
ATB fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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wheelsinsteadofhooves
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 08:53 AM |
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cheers foz, guess it depends on whether i want to go racing or not. was a bit on a plan but not sure how realistic in terms of both having a road/race
car and more importantrly time/money.
still wrangling it over.....
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Fozzie
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 10:12 AM |
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Zane, as you know, I built my car for road and race (as per 750 regs), and got it SVA'd. Since completing the build and using it on the road, I
have decided that I dont want to be 'tied' to a particular series, and want to do other things ie sprints etc. I have since added twin
40's, and will go on to change my cam for a better spec in time.
I guess my point is, get it built, have some fun with it, and then if you want to, you can save up and start changing things round to the way you
want.
I think its a concept most of us have found to be true. Since building his, Bob is toying with the idea of putting a screen on, and further down the
line perhaps a different engine.
My personal 'take' on it, would be to try and build your car bearing in mind, that you may want to change certain components, so therefore
planning the lay out of the engine bay, and cockpit to enable such changes to be made, more accessable. (with least effort).
Remember, you can always add the comfort later if you decide thats what you want after doing the 'bare-ish' bones thing! IMO its easier to
add later, than start taking 'unwanted' bits off.
Once you have it on the road, you will realise that these cars are NEVER 'finished'!
All IMO of course!
HTH fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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DarrenW
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 10:47 AM |
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Personally i dont think it is possible to plan these to a finite level and stick to it through to completion. A couple of reasons for this are;
1. They are all highly individual and personalised. Whether we are extrovert as people or not, the cars definitely are so the project will only be
finished if you sell it.
2. We are all either professional or budding engineers. By definition we are always searching for engineering excellence and the list of future mods
will be ;
a. neverending, and
b. always larger and more elaborate than the list of build jobs to do.
In terms of best thrill / £ or seat of the pants action that largely depends on previous car experience (eg i find my current V6 Mondeo sh1te on
performance etc as my last car was M3 EVO) and driver skill. I know my driving is not good enough for competition so a 1300 locost will probably leave
me grinning for a week. A 2.0 pinto (which is what im building!) at the moment will leaving me eating hawthorn hedges and probably scare me half to
death.
Personally i would say Zetec. mainly cos in std trim it should be driveable at lower speeds and have more than enough in reserve when experience
demands, whereas the 1300 screemer will probably not be well behaved at normal speeds and be wanting to be thrashed, when you get used to it then the
only way forward is engine change. Also as has been said above why not have both - ie remove the padding and change the seats and wheels when the
hooligan wants to be out, put it back in when Mr.Hyde wants a cigar and comfort on his way to the gentlemans club.
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wheelsinsteadofhooves
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 12:19 PM |
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points taken, thing is i have the interior planned and mainly built, rest of the car good as built, just front bodywork and bonnet to go, but these
and other "odd jobs" would be same regardless of trim. interior is/was always going to be stripped out, so no change there, possible fit
standard belts if not going race. also have, sitting more or less side by side, both engines, both ready to slide in.
very valid point about drivability. will be "everyday" car (weekends only time i drive anywhere), so needs at least a modicum of
drivability. as for driving standards, have raced karts and the like in the past, hence wanting to race again, and confident in driving ability. so
said, also slightly scared by being inches away from the tarmac on the open roads! cant wait!!
think the zetec it is (maybe).
any one have a spare race chassis?!
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wheelsinsteadofhooves
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:01 PM |
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after more mulling, guess the question is, what is performance like with a standard, very lightly tuned 1300 crossflow? or will i be overtaken by your
everyday family saloon?
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DarrenW
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:29 PM |
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No contest for me - Zetec. Thats what im planning for the future but funds for now would only allow Pinto. 1300 would be good and fun, but so will the
zetec in std tune and later you have the scope for more power by reworking the top end and improving gas flow etc.
it depends if good and fun are adequate for you - i guess not if you already have track experience.
Interesting data for you - I used to have an M3 EVO. Highly regarded as a fast family car - almost supercar territory. 321bhp and approx 1450Kg. This
gives around 220bhp/ton. 600Kg locost with 130bhp = 217bhp/tonne. I found the M3 to be hugely powerful, too much so at times but you can get
'used' to the acceleration. Anywhere near it in a car inches off the tarmac and no roof will be more than good and fun - guaranteed
ardrenalin rush every trip. I just think the 1300 will be a little shy / timid.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:31 PM |
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It won't be fast, but you won't be overtaken by an average family saloon!
Remember that not all fast driving is power related. Light weight brings a level of nimbleness that runs rings around "normal" road
cars.
For example, year before last I had the use of a 2.0 pinto westfield. The engine was really crap and I would be very surprised if it made more than
90hp. It is also much heavier than a crossflow and was a fully trimmed car.
Not once during driving and passengering in it were we "beaten" on a road with bends in it! The performance on paper was probably dead
slow, certainly 7 secs territory 0-60mph, but at roundabouts you just outbrake the whole queue of traffic chugging along and nip in front of the car
at the front!
The other plus of a stdish crossflow is that if it blows up (very unlikely) you just chuck another one in for the sum of about £50!!
Go for it, you can always change it later when you are richer or more inclined to spend more!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
No contest for me - Zetec. Thats what im planning for the future but funds for now would only allow Pinto. 1300 would be good and fun, but so will the
zetec in std tune and later you have the scope for more power by reworking the top end and improving gas flow etc.
it depends if good and fun are adequate for you - i guess not if you already have track experience.
Interesting data for you - I used to have an M3 EVO. Highly regarded as a fast family car - almost supercar territory. 321bhp and approx 1450Kg. This
gives around 220bhp/ton. 600Kg locost with 130bhp = 217bhp/tonne. I found the M3 to be hugely powerful, too much so at times but you can get
'used' to the acceleration. Anywhere near it in a car inches off the tarmac and no roof will be more than good and fun - guaranteed
ardrenalin rush every trip. I just think the 1300 will be a little shy / timid.
I drive my grasstrack car with around 475 kg all up weight and 204 hp regularly, and yes it's exciting and fun, but you can still have fun with
less power, as long as the car involved is light and nimble to carry the power everywhere. A 1400kg car needs to be powerful, because it's
heavy, and needs big brakes because it's heavy, etc etc etc. A little car can have small brakes (e.g. light brakes!) a small (e.g. light) engine
and still carry plenty of speed on the road.
The track is a different place, no level of power is ever enough (well, up to the most powerful cars I have been on track in anyway, 640hp Ultima
still felt it could use a fair bit more on the track, but silly on the road!)
A 1300 crossflow certainly would feel slow around a track!
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Fozzie
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 02:39 PM |
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Exactly what NS Dev said
Just read/talk to the 750 series guys, their engines are 1300 xflow (can be 'spec'd to gt), they have fun! Their lap times are pretty good
too!
As I said earlier, ya can always change up later.
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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Fozzie
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 03:46 PM |
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I certainly dont think a 1300 would feel slow around the track! I have driven a 'racing' Jag XJ6 round the track, great fun! also a Jag
xk120 ots even greater fun, golf gti (on my ARDS) that was ok.
But nothing compares (IMO) with a low, small, 'open' car on the track thats as light as a feather, takes a lot more
'handling'!
All of the above, is personal preference, and as you are a 'karter' you know the feeling! It is all down to personal preference.
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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wheelsinsteadofhooves
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 03:52 PM |
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thanks for input one and all, much food for thought thrghout the day! (as usual). think ill pop in the xflow. to be hojnest prob slightly easier to
plumb in etc, then if i get "bored" and dont die within 6 months say of sva, then pop in the zetec. that leaves me more time to mate the
zetec to an audi transaxle, as was the plan, for my next car. if that continues to fail, then no matter. if successful, and still want more power, who
knows (1600 xflow???)
anyway, sure ill change my mind 20 times before the weekend, but think that this is the way to go. many many thanks for all your info. dont let this
stop you, more in the way of driving experiances of any outfit always appreciated (hopefully by all on this forum).
happy locosting this weekend
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Fozzie
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 03:59 PM |
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Ya welcome mate!
have a great weekend ya self
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 04:27 PM |
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Maybe you're right Fozzie, the Ultima is a closed car and I have never driven a 7 on the track..................!
In any case, I would go for the Crossflow and have some cheap fun!!
I am only being silly and fitting the vauxhall engine and throttle bodies etc because I already have most of the bits and I have quite a bit of
knowledge of this engine.........better the devil you know.
If I had had a K-series I would have used that without question, and a crossflow would have gone in if one of those was in my garage.
If it came to starting from scratch and I had nothing, I think a bike engine would have been favourite, with a 1600 crossflow or K-series a close
second!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/2/05 at 04:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fozzie
I certainly dont think a 1300 would feel slow around the track! I have driven a 'racing' Jag XJ6 round the track, great fun! also a Jag
xk120 ots even greater fun, golf gti (on my ARDS) that was ok.
But nothing compares (IMO) with a low, small, 'open' car on the track thats as light as a feather, takes a lot more
'handling'!
All of the above, is personal preference, and as you are a 'karter' you know the feeling! It is all down to personal preference.
Fozzie
PS I'd love to drive an XK120 Jag on the track (or road!!) a really beautiful car and sound!!!
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